Ethical Nonprofit Photography: How Authentic Visual Storytelling Inspires Change and Increases Donations

Grab your Packed with Impact Bundle here

Discount code: PODCAST25

--

Tune in for an inspiring and eye-opening episode of The Just Be Cause Podcast as we interview nonprofit photography powerhouse Michelle Riley of Lens for Change! This week, we're diving deep into the transformative impact of authentic visual storytelling for nonprofits. 

• Ever wonder why certain campaign photos spark action while others fall flat?
• Curious about the ethical minefields of using images in fundraising, advocacy, or disaster response? 

Michelle shares her journey from newsrooms to launching Lens for Change, reveals surprising pitfalls with stock and AI-generated photos, and offers real-world strategies to help even small nonprofits capture compelling, mission-driven images. We’ll unpack the dos, the definite don’ts, and the incredible power of photos to build trust, inspire donors, and drive meaningful change.

Ready to rethink how you share your story and elevate your cause? Press play for actionable tips, fascinating stories from the field, and a fresh look at why authenticity always matters most. Don’t miss it!

Resources mentioned

Michelle's article in The PhiLanthropic Year:

The Power and Responsibility of Nonprofit Photography 

Michelle's LinkedIn

Lens for Change website

Meet your fundraising expert

Thanks for listening to Just Be Cause Podcast! I'm Katherine Lacefield the founder and head consultant of Just Be Cause Consulting.

My goal is to partner with YOU nonprofits and philanthropic organizations to help you make a positive impact in your community.

With over 20 years of experience in the nonprofit and philanthropic sectors, I help organizations optimize their operations with key knowledge in various domains, such as fundraising strategy, grantmaking research, communications, and development.

Sign up to my newsletter, The Nonprofit Nuggets for FREE fundraising advice, tools and guidance!

Sign me up!

Transcript

0:00

I support authentic visual storytelling just because I believe photography has the power to change the world. Welcome to the Just Because podcast. In a space in which the scarcity mindset has been normal for far too long, discover how we're helping nonprofits finally take back their power, find your true purpose, and even use mindfulness to manifest their dream solutions into reality. I'm your host, Catherine Lacefield, a lifetime nonprofit professional. Together, we'll master the tools needed to overcome limitations, rise in times of adversity, and understand the interconnectedness of all causes towards a more conscious philanthropy. Just because is the right thing to do. Hey, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Just Because podcast. Today, I really wanna talk about you know that saying a picture is worth a thousand words? Well, the same can definitely be true around fundraising, advocacy, and even education campaigns where photos can actually have much more impact than the words that go underneath them. But how do we even go about choosing which photos to use, and what are some of the issues that might come up when using certain photos versus others? Lucky enough, I have someone who is, in my very humble opinion, the expert in the matter, Michelle Riley. She is a photojournalist and nonprofit visual storytelling expert that is dedicated to helping organizations use authentic photography to drive social change. She spent sixteen years at the Humane Society of the United States, where she built and led the organization's first in house photography team and elevated the role of authentic imagery in advocacy, fundraising, and media outreach. Now she's the founder of Lens for Change, and she helps nonprofit and advocacy organizations harness the power of ethical, authentic photography to expand their reach, increase donations, and inspire action. She does this by providing comprehensive photo shoot services, including concept development, professional photographers, expert creative direction, flexible usage rights, and strategic image utilizing utilization guidance. She also offers training on ethical visual storytelling, nonprofit photography best practices, and digital asset management implementation. Her work really ensures that nonprofits have the powerful, ethical, and authentic visuals they need to build trust, inspire action, and drive lasting change. Michelle is someone I could chat with for hours and have chatted for hours with about fundraising campaigns, especially in the animal movement overall. Sorry. Especially in the animal movement, but in other campaigns as well. And I am so thrilled to finally have her on the show today. So, Michelle, welcome. Thank you so much, Catherine. I'm so excited and honored to be here with you today. Yes. I feel like we've been, like, talking about this for so long, and I remember our first chat, which was supposed to be half an hour, turned into, like, this two hour venting session about Yes. It was. Almost. It was amazing. So I think as many other people, myself, when you first said that you were a nonprofit photography consultant, I was like, what? What is that position, and why have I never heard about it before? So I'd love to hear about how you led up to that position and what your background was from photography to what you're doing now. I'd love to let's dive into that. Sure. Well, you are not alone. Most people have never heard of that. So I'm excited to be on the show today to talk about what it is because I think I invented it. So when I I just to give you a little bit of a background, I have always believed in the power of authentic photography to drive change. And I got my first camera when I was 12. I fell in love with it immediately. By the time I was 15, I knew I wanted to be a photographer, you know, for the rest of my life. And as you said, I spent sixteen years at the Humane Society of the United States, which has recently been rebranded to Humane World for Animals. So I need to get used to that new name, because they will always be the Humane Society to me. But after sixteen years and prior to that, I was a newspaper photographer and then, you know, made the switch into animal welfare. And after those sixteen years, I, you know, was ready for a change. It was a great organization. I loved working there. It was really difficult to decide to leave, but I was ready to make a change. And I considered going to another nonprofit organization to do the same thing, run the photo team, or build one if they didn't already have one. But I wanted I found myself as I was thinking about it, and this was literally like a two year decision to leave, the organization. As I was thinking about what my next step was gonna be, I really kept coming back to, like, I want a bigger impact than just one organization. You know? I'd spent sixteen years working at one organization, working on one cause. Animal welfare will always be, you know, my heart and soul for sure. But there are so many incredible causes out there. There are so many amazing organizations, and I wanted to figure out a way that I could have an impact on all of them. You know, whether it's environmental or education or health care, You know, there there's just so many different levels of advocacy. I really wanted to be able to help the entire nonprofit sector. And so Go ahead. Totally understand that. And just just not sorry to interrupt. Just this is exactly why I became a fundraising consultant because I wanted to help all of the nonprofits, not just one of them at a time. So I definitely hear where you're coming from. So what did that lead into your service offer? So I started thinking about, what I could offer as a, you know, consultant. And I did I I will say I did a lot of market research on this because I wanted I had this idea to become a consultant because I I actually have a lot of colleagues that have left the organization prior to me that went into consulting, nonprofit consulting specifically. And so I knew it was a possibility, and I started doing all these searches of for nonprofit photography consultants to see if I had competition. And nothing came up. And I couldn't believe I, honestly, I couldn't believe that because there are a million different types of consultants out there for nonprofits between fundraising and marketing and advertising and email and website and graphic design and all the things. But nobody was focusing on photography. And I thought, like, well, this could be really good or this could be really bad. Right? Like, it could either be a need that I could fulfill that isn't being met right now, or it can mean that nobody's interested in it. So I actually did a market I paid a company to do a market research study for me, and we we did a very targeted search to find out if this was something that organizations were interested in, and if so, what specifically they were interested in. And so I had a lot of different ideas in terms of, like, photography services, whether it's, you know, hiring professional photographers, building an in house photo team, building a digital asset management library. And so I used the results from that study to kind of figure out where the pain points were in the market, what people were most interested in, and that's how I put together service my service offerings. The primary service that I offer is end to end comprehensive photo shoots. So, like, you mentioned when you were giving the my intro, you know, I basically will work with a nonprofit from start to finish. Because what I find is a lot of nonprofits would love to use professional photography, but they're afraid of it, one, because of cost, and two, they also just don't know how to do it. They don't know how to find freelance photographers. They don't know how to negotiate usage rights. They don't know how to put together put together a comprehensive shot list, or they've had a bad experience in the past where they've hired somebody, but they didn't put the direction together. And so they ended up getting a bunch of photos that they couldn't really use. And so I come in to kind of fill that gap and bring that level of expertise because I have expertise with both the from the photographer side and from the nonprofit side. So I can look at, you know, a program or, you know, a mission that of of an whatever the organization is working on and have a conversation with them about, like, tell me about what your your normal Mhmm. Activities are, and help them pinpoint what are the things to shoot. Because a lot of times, it's like, well, we don't know what to shoot, or we don't have anything to shoot. That's exactly what I was gonna say because even myself who have used I I've done, you know, photoshoots for as a business owner. And I was like, I don't know what kind of photos to take. Like, it can seem a bit overwhelming of, like, not just, like, how to select, but I don't know. How should I be posing? What kind of poses should I think about? Like, I had the very simple idea of I want some photos of me doing my podcast. I want some photos of me working on a computer, and I want some photos of me working like, you know, giving a class. But and then this was staged, and I know we're gonna talk about that later. But, but even that was, like, very hard for me to, like, conceive of how can I make a shot list, what kind of angle? So I think a lot of people just don't realize, like, how much can go into a photo shoot, and having that kind of a plan can really make it that you have so much more high quality photos and that you can also use them for many different things. Right? Exactly. That's what I'm understanding of, like, the efficiency of if you're gonna invest in a good photographer, make sure that it's worth your while by not having a whole bunch of random shots that are not useful to your mission. Right. Exactly. So and and having the photography background Mhmm. You know, I know you know, first, there's a nonprofit background of figuring out what's the best thing to shoot based on your mission. You know? What are the best, you know, things that we wanna focus on? That comes from my nonprofit background, but what comes from my boat photographer background is how to shoot it. You know? Yeah. Like, what are the things if I was a photographer going into this situation, you know, working for a newspaper, what would I focus on? What are the things that I would shoot? And that's how I developed my shot list. And a lot of times, like, I will and this has happened so many times throughout my career. When we were high like, I hired a I've I've managed thousands of freelance assignments at, yeah, at Humane World. And when, we would put together our, our, you know, our shot list and our creative brief to explain what the assignment was and, you know, give our shot list and the things we were looking for and all of that, we would get photographers that would say, this is the most comprehensive creative brief I've ever gotten in my life. And the reason for that is because they're working with clients that aren't photographers. They don't you know, they get a shot list that has, like, three things on it. And our shot list for, like, five you know? Our yeah. And our shot list would be, like, five pages long because it's, you know, it's like, here's the assignment summary. Here's the schedule. Here's here are the shots that we're looking for. Here are the things to keep in mind, like, certain things that people don't even realize, like, composition and design. Like, you know, when you when you wanna make sure that your photos is like you said, you you wanna make sure that you're it's worth your while and that the photos can be used, you know, across a whole bunch of different things, you need to think about composition and design. Are you gonna wanna run this on the cover of a magazine? Are you gonna wanna put it on the cover of your annual report? If so, those photos need to be shot vertical, and they also need to have dead space for text. Are you gonna are you gonna wanna put this on social media? If so, those are sometimes square. Those also need space for text. You know, when you're looking to take consideration Exactly. Insane. Right. You know? Is your website have a rigid design space? Like, does the subject need to be on the, you know, right or left hand side so that you can put text on the other side? Like, these are things that need to that you need to think about, and I think it's really overwhelming for nonprofits to, like, even know where to begin when it comes to working with a professional. And so that's what I really aim to help nonprofits with is, like, you're not just getting a photographer. It's not gonna be just on you to throw together a shot list. Like, I'm gonna expertly guide you through the process of the things that you need to think about, you know, the places where you wanna use the photos, the emotion that you wanna get across. You know? All of those kinds of things need to be taken into consideration way before the shoot takes place. Yeah. And I think that that is such an service offer that I wouldn't have necessarily thought of. But hearing what you're saying, like, this is what will make it so that these photos can be actually used. Like, just thinking about, like, how many times I'm trying to make a social media post. And I have this amazing photo, and I'm putting air quotes here because it's it seems like I really wanna use this photo, but I can't actually use it because I can't put any text on it because it just doesn't work. Right. Or it just Right. I'd have to make a block, and then that ruins the image. Or that like, there's so many things that will make it so that those photos that look great in one format will just not work in another. So that makes so much sense, and I I find it insane that there isn't already a consultant doing that. So props to you. But I know that one of the other conversations that we've talked about, it's not just from, like, a logistical planning perspective, but it's also around ethics, around how to use the photos. And that is where I I know we've dug into that subject many times in our conversations. So what are some of the biggest pet peeves that you've seen or that you deal with with how nonprofits are using their photos? That's a big question. So as far as ethics, there are a lot of ethical considerations to to talk about, and I I do wanna get into all of them. But to answer your question directly, my biggest pet peeve in terms of what I see nonprofits do a lot, and and I and I I don't wanna place blame because I think that this happens just because they don't realize the implications. Mhmm. But the biggest pet peeve I have is is when nonprofits use photos that are out of context. Yeah. So, or that are super old. You know? Like so for example, if you're running a year end campaign, your photos need to be from that year. You know? Yeah. They need to be from that year. Logically. Like, they don't like, please do not use a photo that you took five years ago and use it in your year end campaign for that year. It's misleading. Mhmm. The other pet peeve in terms of, you know, when I when I say context, the other example I can give is around emergency response. And so, you know, a lot of times, like, there's a lot of organizations that respond to disasters. Right? Hurricanes, floods, tornadoes, wildfires. And, you know, whether it's animal organizations or humanitarian organizations, they will be gearing up to go. And I have a lot of experience with this with the humane humane world because we, you know, we had a lot of we had an animal rescue team that responded to, you know, disasters and, you know, both man made and natural. And when you're on the way, right, you wanna support you wanna tell you wanna get your fundraising campaigns going right away. Like, we've been deployed to, you know, California for the wildfires. Our team is on the way. And there's this, like, overwhelming need, I think, or or desire to get, like, this super compelling, photo out right away. And so a lot of nonprofits will use photos, and this is across the board. I've seen this with animal groups. I've seen this with humanitarian groups. When they're when their people are on their way and they don't have photos from that specific disaster to share yet, they will pull a photo from a disaster that they responded to five years ago, and they put that out on their fundraising campaign. And there's two problems with that. One, it's super misleading because you're you're telling your people that you're responding to an arrest a a situation. They see the photo, and whether you disclose it or not, like, even if you put a comment out you put a caption that says, this photo is from a previous rescue, I'm telling you nobody sees that. They assume that the image came from the specific disaster that you're talking about. The second issue is that your text doesn't match your photos. So if you say we're on the way, if your text says we're on the way, right, and it's paired with a photo of you already there, there's a mismatch. It makes no sense. So and all of this comes down to when it comes to ethics, it all comes down to maintaining and upholding your credibility and integrity as an organization. And that's why I'm so power I'm so passionate about it and why I try to speak out about it as much as I can is to advocate for authentic storytelling. Like, tell your people the truth. You're on your way. You don't have a photo, then, you know, don't use one from five years ago. Use a photo of your team Getting ready. Gear. Yeah. Getting ready. Like, it's not a super sexy photo, but it doesn't matter. People are gonna respond to it because it's real, because it's authentic, and it's because it's matched with language that says we're on the way to respond. Right? You're being honest. You know? I think authenticity is, like, the keyword here where I think a lot of nonprofits, like and in in media in general, we always wanna have that shock factor and that Right. Fact factor. But at the end of the day, like, especially if we're thinking about long term, stewardship and long term retention of our donors, like, we wanna make sure that they're not having a bad experience of, like, oh, like and then makes you kind of question like, oh, wait. So this is a photo from five years ago? So, like, are you actually on the way? Like Right. What's going on here? And Right. There's already so much there's, like, two times where two situations where charities will generally be in the news. There's number one, when there's a conflict around them and around the nonprofit, and there's, like, some form of of scandal. Or number two, it's Christmas season, and people are like, you should donate for Christmas. Those are, like, the only two times where we generally hear about charities. Like, you don't want to cause any conflict or lack of trust or loss of trust in the sector because you're you're affecting the sector that you're working in as a whole, not even just your organization. So there's okay. So you brought up two important things. There's around out of context, the dates when people start using things that are out of date. But there's also we've had these conversations. There's also other things around, like, how to shoot your photos so that they're more authentic, more real, but also respectful of the people that are being especially in these situations of, like, conflict or, you know, when there's natural disasters. There's also questions around what types of photos to use as well. Yeah. There definitely are. And there's a lot of ways that you can do it right, and there's a lot of ways that you can do it wrong. So, you know, the the thing that I always try to focus on is to be, when I'm speaking with nonprofits about this issue is you need to, first and foremost, whatever your subject matter is, you need to take their well-being and the and the and the dignity of your beneficiaries into account. That needs to be number one. You know? Getting a photo that's gonna, you know, do gangbusters for marketing or fundraising, yes, that's a priority, but that's your number two priority. Your number one priority is protecting the people that you actually serve. Because if you're not protecting them, what are you doing as an organization? Right? So, you know, when it comes to photographing sensitive issues, like, you know, if there's a a disaster situation like, I've had this experience myself. I mean, I responded to, hurricane, Irene in The Carolinas back in 02/2011. And, you know, we're our team was there to provide, aid and support and, you know, food and supplies and stuff to people that had lost their homes. And we're walking down the street, and, you know, we come across these people that, are standing in front of their home that has literally just been destroyed. And, you know, when you raise your camera to someone that's in tears that's just literally lost everything they owned, there's an ick factor there. Right? Like, it just feels gross. Like, you're you're exploiting their suffering so that you can, you know, raise money. There's just Even if it's for money, like, it just feels, like, very exploitative like you said. Or even if it's just for awareness, it feels exploitive. You know? Even if you're not raising money and you just wanna tell people this is what's going on, it still feels exploitive. So, you know, consent informed consent is really important, but you there are times when asking for consent is like, you need to be asking for consent no matter what, to make sure that that you're, you know, when you're photographing your beneficiaries, that they're okay with you using your photos for fundraising and advertising and marketing because that counts as commercial use. So that's actually a legal requirement in addition to it just being the right thing to do from an ethical standpoint. But there are times when even doing that, even asking for consent is inappropriate. Weird. Yeah. You know, when someone's just lost everything, not a good idea. You know? I'm sorry that you just lost your house. But could you please sign this release so that we could raise money and, you know, help fund our efforts to but it's just not okay. So even like it would benefit them directly either. Right? Like, if it was, like, hey. I'm your neighbor. Right? Like, you know, and then it's gonna go towards them. Like, okay. Like, they can benefit directly. But if it's if it's just like a general call, it's even less like, it feels wrong. Yeah. Exactly. So the thing that you wanna do in that situation is focus turn your lens on to the people that are doing the helping. Focus your focus your efforts on, you know, photographing your staff, your volunteers. And there are creative ways to, you know, get authentic images of, you know, you responding to a disaster without showing people in an identifiable way. So, you know, if your staff is handing someone a supply bag or talking to someone, you know, on the street or, you know, doing whatever you're doing, shoot from behind the beneficiary, behind them, you know, or from the side so that and and focus on the the faces of your people, you know, that are doing the helping. That is an that is an authentic way to represent your work and authentically represent your beneficiaries in a way that they're not identifiable. Yeah. You know? No. There's also detailed shots. You know? You can do you can do up close detail shots where you show people's bodies or their hands working on something, but not their faces. I mean, it's just there are certain times when it's just not appropriate to ask for a release, period. Yeah. And I think that those photos sometimes can't you know, we we've talked about this before, but, like, around, like, poverty porn and I would even say, like, disaster porn or any, like, harmful like, it can it yes. It it captures people's attention and it definitely triggers emotions. But like you said, I think as nonprofits, it's it's your responsibility to also make sure that you're you're protecting those that you're serving. So I think that those are very good reminders for people when you're building up your your your shot list or if you're if you're working with a photography consultant around this of, like, keeping these things in mind so that you don't end up with, like, a scandal or even with someone coming back to you like you shared with me before and saying, I'm not comfortable with with this usage of my photo even if they had released it. And you have to bring it down after anyway. So these are all great examples. But my one question, and we've is around the difference in or the advantage, I could say, about working in the animal field because you can I've seen very gruesome, like, images of animals in very difficult situations. And so with animals, it's it's a bit different, right, when we're talking about ethics, when we're talking about, obviously, releases. So what's your I would love to hear kind of your talk your take on the differences of working in the animal advocacy phase sector. Sure. There are differences when it comes to animals. You know, like you said, you know, when you're when you're working with people, especially in, you know, sensitive populations, you do wanna stay away from poverty porn. When it comes to photographing animals, you do have a little bit of an easier time because you don't have to worry about, consent. And, you know, it's, I mean, there are lots of ways to exploit animals, but taking photo in in this context, taking photos of an animal in a bad situation, you know, because you you do wanna show your audience the need. Right? And so if you're an animal organization and you're rescuing, you know, an animal from a bad situation, whether it's a natural disaster or a man made disaster like a puppy mill or, you know, whatever, the if the animal is living in really bad conditions, like, you do wanna show that. And, you know, that is something that you can do to show the need, and that's not really considered exploitive because, you know, it's it's an animal, and, you know, you're not it's just not it's not the same thing as a person. The consent issue isn't is is not the same thing. You know? And you're not you know, with poverty porn, like, a lot of times that, perpetuates stereotypes and biases and things like that, and and that that actually harms the people that you're hurting. When you're showing an animal in a bad situation, you're not harming them. You're helping them. Yeah. You know? Because you're showing them the bad situation that they're in, and then you're also showing their rescue. Oh, exactly. I think that that's, yeah, ideally, we would have the after effect. And that's also, like this brings up something for me around photography in general, and we where the difference between photojournalism where you're trained from what I understand to not intervene. But as a nonprofit as a nonprofit photographer, what is your responsibility in that context? Like, I know that you've done both. So, like, how do you feel the differences between taking photos of, let's say, an animal in a very difficult situation and, like, not intervening? Or, like, I know that on social media, a lot of people are like, how could you have been filming that? Like, why didn't you drop your phone and actually do something instead of filming? I'd love to hear your take on that from a photographer's perspective. Yeah. So when you're working in a news agency, you know, for a news organization, you are trained to stay objective, to not intervene. And, you know, that is actually one of the biggest reasons why I left the news industry and moved into nonprofits because, you know, I there were things that, you know, I saw. And and to be fair, like, I wasn't a newspaper photographer for very long, so I don't have a ton of experience with this. But there were times where I was shooting, you know, something for the news for a newspaper where I was like, I really wanna help this person, but I can't. You know? I can't as a photojournalist. You're trained. You just you can't do that. When you're in a nonprofit, it's different because you you have an editorial agenda. Right? You are there to document what's happening, but you're also there to help. And so, you know, from a photographer standpoint I mean, ideally, you're not the photographer and the rescuer. Right? Like, ideally, you're the you're you know, the photographer is there to document the rescue team's work, and so it's not your actual responsibility to rescue the animal. But, you know, if you're a small nonprofit and you do and you are fulfilling both roles, there's nothing wrong with that. You know? You take a you take a photo of the animal that you're about to rescue, and you put your phone down, and then you go rescue the animal. There's not, you know, ethical, conflicts there because you're not working for a news agency. You're working for a nonprofit. And the purpose of a nonprofit is to make whatever situation that you are focused on better. That's the whole reason you exist. Exactly. And I think that that is something to keep in mind and that sometimes it it is difficult to imagine, like, how were you able to take that photo. And it's like, yes. But then we did this. So I think that's also from, disclaimer perspective. I think it's important to share, though, that information with your audience of, like, what happened after the photo and not just leave a photo of a horrible situation and just explain, like, this animal is in the situation. Well, we thanks to people like you, we are able to rescue animals from these situations. And I know that one of my favorite author, photographers in this space, Joanne McArthur, like, she, like, does a lot of photography around just witnessing and that she doesn't intervene and or, like, that they can't. Like, there's legal restrictions around what they can and cannot do. And so there is a wide range of situations for photography in many different spaces where there's only so much that you can actually do sometimes, and sometimes bear witness is also a very useful way way of using photography. Yeah. And to add on that, like, Joanne, you know, I I am familiar with Joanne, and I I worked with her when I was at Humane World. And she she's an amazing photographer, and is extremely passionate about animal welfare without a doubt. And a lot of the stuff that she does is on is on a massive scale. So she does a lot of, like, factory farming and fur farming and, you know, those kinds of situations. When you're shooting at a factory farm, you can't, you know, you you can't rescue those animals. I mean, unless you're there with the USDA and it's about to get shut down, you know, then that's one thing. But, I mean, she's what she's doing is, like you said, bearing witness. You know? Yeah. Showing the showing her purpose is this is what life looks like inside a fur farm. Do something about this. Mhmm. So, you know, even if you can't if your if your organization isn't in a position to actually do something, showing the I have always believed that showing the world what is happening will cause people to do something. That's the only way to change anything. Right? It's just people don't know what's going on. Something, you know, horrible is happening in the dark. Nobody knows about it. It's never gonna change. But when you, you know, photograph it and you put it out there and you show the world what's happening, that's when things change. Yeah. And and I'm gonna drop it in here that there's this amazing article that you're writing for the philanthropic year that by the time this episode gets recorded and gets published, we'll be able to share it. So I'll definitely drop it in the chat because, Michelle, honestly, all of the examples that you gave of the power of photography to change the world. So it's not just about fundraising. It's also about bringing about social change, and I think those examples were also absolutely amazing so that we can really understand just how important photography can be and is in your nonprofit, and why is it not taken as seriously as copywriting or as other forms of communication? Sometimes having an expert come in to help you with them can be really, really helpful. So before we go into more about the details of that, I'd love to hear what was one of your favorite photoshoots to work on throughout your career? Well, for most photographers, I think this would be a difficult question for me. It's an easy one. It's definitely my trip to South Africa. When I was at, Humane World, we I was working on the we had a, a bimonthly magazine called All Animals, which is still in existence today. And, about ten years ago, I got to travel to South Africa with a writer, and the story was about, elephant control our elephant population control. And so in South Africa, a lot of people are surprised to hear this, but in South Africa, the elephant population is actually more than the the land can sustain. And so, yeah, it sounds crazy. Right? Sounds crazy. Because they're right. I know. But it is actually true. And so what it was happening, at the time and, you know, prior to us going out there, there would be these massive elephant calls because what happens is the elephants travel, like, hundreds of miles a day, and they're very big and very destructive. And so they would trample through people's property. They would destroy homes. They would destroy their, you know, their vegetation, all all of that kind of stuff. And so to control the population, there would be these massive culls where people would, these organizations would come in, with a helicopter and just shoot, you know, dozens and dozens of elephants. And, so at Humane World, what we were promoting was immunocostroception, which is basically, it's a dart that contains birth control. So, we were there to cover that. We were there to cover that story of of how, immunocontrospection was was working to control the elephant population in South Africa to keep the calls down. And so I actually got to go up in a helicopter. I got to see these herds of, of elephants, you know, going through the land, and it was just this amazing, incredible experience. And, you know, just being in such a different place and being able to see so many different types of animals. I mean, the focus was elephants, but we also saw, you know, giraffes and rhinos and, you know, every different kind of monkey you can think of, and, you know, it was it was definitely the coolest, experience. And and any assignment where I get to hang out of a helicopter gets pretty ranked gets ranked pretty high on my list, and I have gotten to do that a number of times. But South Africa does South Africa, definitely tops them all. Yeah. That sounds amazing. And I can just, like, imagine, like, how exciting that must have been to be documenting this kind of a campaign. And, also, like, I've worked a lot with with, like, spay neuter campaigns and, like, these kinds of technologies when people can can see or, like, what are the pharmaceutical advantage advances that we can use to yes. We understand that there's a conflict with human populations, and we're not saying that we are not facing that. But there are more ethical, more, like, humane ways of dealing with these problems Right. Is that we're not dismissing the situation of these families that are, yes, getting their houses destroyed or getting their crops destroyed, that we're taking both sides into consideration. So I think that's that's awesome. I I I'd wanna hang out of a helicopter, take some photos. Yeah. That sounds pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. And immunocontroception is actually done here in The States as well to help control the deer population. It's used out west to control the, like, the wild horse population, and it's administered, you know, through a dart gun. So, you know, you go in a helicopter, and instead of shooting a gun, you know, with a bullet, you're shooting a dart gun. And I got to watch and when we were in South Africa, I got to watch and photograph the process of, you know, putting these darts together. And the way that they work is that, you put the the medication, the the birth control in, and you mix it in with, like, a a there's two parts to the syringe, and one has the medication and another part has ink. And so when the tell after. Dart yeah. So when the dart goes in, ink explodes, onto the animal skin. So, like, when I got to go up in the helicopter after the darting had taken place, I was being flown around the herds that had just been darted, and, you know, I could see and they had radio collars on them and stuff, so they knew which ones were the females and which ones to shoot and stuff like that. So, you know, I could see, like, oh, that one just got administered because I can see the green ink, you know, on his on her backside. So That's so interesting because we were just before we started the hit hit record, I was just showing that as part of a volunteer campaign that I did in Colombia where they were spaying and neutering a lot of stray animals, and they also have a marking process. And we actually got our ears all tattooed with the same marking. So cool. Yeah. It was a really cool I wouldn't want a dart Super cool. With giant, like, three feet stain that I'll pass on that one. But Yeah. I find it really interesting to document these different stories and to showcase, like, these are the kinds of actions that we're doing and that can inspire, like, yes, donations, but also understanding of, like, the bigger issues. So I think there's a lot of, like, the education that like, explaining it verbally is one thing, and then seeing the photos and seeing seeing it, you know, how it unrolls and throughout the whole campaign can be very, very telling for people that are are supporting your cause. So for for nonprofits, a lot of the nonprofits that I feel are part of the audience are smaller nonprofits, that what can they what would what advice would you give for them to just at least start improving the quality of the photos and communications or any tips you would give for people that are maybe not have the biggest budget or that are just getting started and they just don't know where where to start? Sure. Yeah. I mean, there's there's two ways. I mean, the the the main thing that I would say is to definitely focus on authenticity. So, you know, you wanna try to move away from stock images as much as you can and show the real authentic work that your organization is doing. And when I say authentic, I mean on post. So, you know, not staged, not like, you know, let's go do a a a shoot of, you know, what it would look like when we're doing x y z. Like, no. Go do a shoot of when you're actually doing x x y z. So that's the first thing is is, you know, focusing on on the authentic and not and not stage you're proposing. And, you know, in terms of and and I get this question a lot, you know, when it comes to budget because a lot of organizations do, you know, have a budget concern when it comes to hiring a photographer. And I really encourage nonprofits to look at professional photography as an investment Mhmm. Into their brand, into their mission, into their work versus an expense. Stock photos are an expense. Right? They don't show your mission. They don't show your people. They don't emotionally connect with your audience in the same way. Stock photos are an expense. Professional photos, you know, when they're done right, I mean, obviously, they do cost more than a a single stock photo. But you need to take into consideration that, you know, when you invest in a professional shoot and it's done right, it can provide you with enough images to last you the entire year. Mhmm. So, you know, when you put, you know, marketing money aside, you should think about allocating some of that. You know, if you're, you know, if you have a marketing budget, right, you're gonna spend marketing on ads and things like that. Think about allocating some of that money to doing one professional shoot per year. I mean, so for at Lens for Change, when I hire a photographer for a nonprofit, I require a hundred images out of a full day shoot as an at a minimum. And a lot of photographers will give me more than that. Like, I did a shoot last year, at a food service organization, and it was a full day shoot, but it was a complicated shoot with, like, multiple you know, the schedule had multiple different things that we were shooting. And the requirement was a hundred images per day, but I ended up with, like, 230 from one day. Now imagine having 230 authentic professionally shot images for your brand. You know? Yeah. That's gonna last for your organization, that's gonna last you a whole year. And, you know, the other thing with stock photos is, you know, sure, an an individual stock photo is gonna be cheaper than an individual photo shoot, but you gotta think about the volume. So if you were gonna try to buy a 30 stock images. Right. 230 stock images, they're you know, that expense is gonna add up. And not to not and also you gotta also think about the the time is money aspect. Right? Think about how many staff hours it's gonna take to find the right image. Team to find the right image, and most of the time, it's not the right image anyway. People can tell that it's stuck. You know? So that's one of the things that I that I really try to advocate about a lot is that, you know, it it's really an investment into your your organization, the credibility and the integrity of your organization. If you absolutely don't have the money for a photographer even once a year, you know, it's still worth trying to find, you know, potentially a volunteer photographer. Like, there are, you know, are plenty of of professional photographers out there that have a soft spot in their heart for whatever your particular cause is and will volunteer their their day you know, their time for you pro bono for a day. And then beyond that, you know, it's also just another option is to just try to take better photos yourself. So even with a cell phone, I mean, cell phones have come a long way over the last many years. Right? I mean, a phone, you know, used to produce a tiny image that, you know, you could run maybe as a postage stamp, you know, in your magazine. Now you could run an iPhone photo on the cover of your magazine, and it would be fine resolution wise, quality wise. So you it is possible to take powerful images with your phone, but you do need to be focused on the right things. You wanna focus on, you know, authenticity and emotional connection, and, you know, you wanna pay attention to your backgrounds and to lighting and composition and all of those things. And, you know, I offer training on on how to how to do that if organizations are interested and, you know, absolutely don't have the money for a shoot. You know, there's still there are still ways that they can learn how to take better photos themselves without needing to be professionals. So much things here. Like, I feel like for anyone listening, like, I hope you're, like, running to your website and, like, tearing down the stock photos almost as we speak. But, yeah, I think it's it's very important. Like, I've seen different nonprofits where I see the same images come back, and it's just like, they're using stock photos. And I prefer seeing lower quality images that are obviously real and authentic than photos or or, like, AI photos that we haven't gotten into that topic, but that seemed very vague. And it's just like Yeah. Even just today, someone was saying like, oh my god. This consultant's LinkedIn. I'm not gonna name them. It looks so professional. Like, but it's all AI edited photos, and it just, like, it gives me, like, a creepy feeling of, like, it's Yeah. It's fake. Like Yeah. I've used, like, AI enhancers just to, like, let's say if the photo's blurry. Like, I I understand that there's some usefulness to it, or, like, for the ideation process. But, like, if it's representing your brand, like, come on. Like, we need to use real authentic photos. You need to use real photos. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I come down I mean, as far as AI goes, I come down Yeah. I mean, I come down I mean, as far as AI goes, I come down very strongly on the no way is when AI has its place. It's good for plenty of things, but when it comes to images, absolutely not. It is a % fake and people can tell. Yeah. And the one thing that I wanted to add to your comment about stock photos is that, you know, when you say you've seen like, when you mentioned you've seen this image before, think about the fact that are were you talking about one specific organization? Like, you see, I say I wouldn't be able to name, but, like, there'd be two organizations that in their banner work in their gonna say. Yeah. Like, for yeah. That's what I was gonna say is, like, think about multiple organizations using the same stock photo. Like, it's one thing to continue to reuse. It's it's bad enough to continue to reuse the same stock photo on your website multiple times. People will start to get wise to that. But when they start seeing the same stock photo used across multiple organizations, it's an even harder hit for your credibility. And, you know, and the thing that I wanna bring up about this too because it's really important when we talk about ethics and and authenticity is that because a lot of folks are like, what's a big deal? It's just a photo. It's not just a photo because it opens up a huge can of worms. When people realize that you have used an a fake photo or you have altered a photo, and I'll give you an example of this in a minute. But when, you know, when people realize that something is off with your images, they immediately start to question everything else that you do, and it ends up causing a huge scandal. They ask, like, if your photos are fake, what else are you lying about? Are you altering your quotes? Are you exaggerating your data? Are you, you know, exaggerating your impact? Are you what about your use of funds? You know? I mean, it opens this huge can of worms of, like, if you're doing this with your photos, what are you doing with everything else? So to give you an example of what I mean in terms of a scandal, many years ago, there was an ad campaign that was run-in New York City, that was about raising awareness for diabetes. And they used a the photo had a photo of a man sitting on a stool with crutches in the background, and he was missing his leg. And the text on the ad talked about, you know, sugar and soda and diabetes being on the rise and etcetera, etcetera. So the photo was run throughout the entire New York City metro system on billboards and all across New York City. And it did not take very long for somebody to realize that the man sitting on the stool in the photo was actually a stock photo. And the implication of the ad was that this was a real guy. Right? This was a real guy suffering from diabetes who was missing a leg. Well, not only was that not the case, this was not only was it not a real guy suffering from diabetes, it was a stock photo. It was an altered stock photo. In the real original stock photo, the man had both legs. Yeah. He had both legs. There were no crutches in the background. So you can guess what happened to that ad campaign. Right? And when it comes to ads, like, you do have more leeway with what you're allowed to do. So from a legal perspective, the organization did nothing wrong. They purchased a stock photo. They had permission to alter it if they wanted to via the stock house. So from a legal perspective, they didn't do anything wrong. From an ethical perspective, they did a lot of things wrong, and it, you know, it made a it it tanked. The ad campaign tanked. People found out about it. There was public outrage. All of the images, all of the ads had to be taken down. So think about what a gigantic waste of money and time that was in ad space and, you know, creating that ad. If they had just found, you know, a a real person that was comfortable, you know, being the face of that ad campaign, how much more effective it would have been instead of turning into a public scandal. So instead of raising awareness about diabetes, they became the subject of a scandal that was run-in multiple news outlets, including The New York Times. So that's not worth it. It's not worth it. No. It's not worth it. So there's also the the, like, the risk and, like, that cost of the potential risk and the loss of your reputation and credibility and, like, thinking about that from a fundraising perspective of what is the potential loss if you don't do things properly. And I think that this is something that we don't tend to think about. Like, oh, well, let's just share a made up story of something, and then, like, people really, well, this is a was this even a real story? And then it just like you said, it can go down really fast, and then people stop believing you and, like, how much money are you gonna lose down the road. So but you've covered so much of what you can help with nonprofits. We've talked about training. So, like, if you're at the, like, lower end of the spectrum, you don't have a huge budget, but you wanna learn how to take better photos yourself, you can help them with that. I love the idea of, like, the the the full training. Yep. Yeah. There's there's so many things. So what is the best way for people to connect with you, to learn more about what you do? And is do you have any, like, freebies or anything that people, like I I don't know if you have any, like, lead magnets that you don't wanna talk about, but I'm giving you the floor to how would you like people to connect with you. Yeah. So I have a website. It's lensforchange.net. So that would be the first way to, take a look at, you know, what my offerings are. My contact information is on there. I do also have, my email address is on there as well. I'm also pretty active on LinkedIn, so we can drop that in the show notes as well for if you wanna follow me on LinkedIn. And I do have, a free download that we can drop in the show notes also that is a a resource. It has, 10 tips for choosing and, using compelling photography for fundraising success, and then it also has six ideas for compelling photo shoots. So we can we can stick that in the show notes as well. So lots of ways to contact me. Yeah. And I think that that's like, if you're just getting started, you don't know where to start, I think this kind of list can help, like, get the ideas turning. But same way as I feel around fundraising, sometimes we just need that extra support. So don't hesitate to reach out to Michelle to really, have that that backing that you know things are gonna go well. And I think it's an investment into a longer term efficiency for your whole your campaigns for the entire year. So I love that you think about it as more of an investment. And as much as we would invest in quality care for our beneficiaries and making sure our services and our programs are good, like, our communications and our marketing also has to reflect that. So, Michelle, I know that we could have conversations forever around ethics and around photography and around the use of it for the nonprofit world, but I feel like there's a lot of stuff here that anyone listening can take away and really start improving the way they use photos in their nonprofit. So, Michelle, thank you so much. It has been absolutely incredible to hear all of the amazing tips that you've shared today. Thank you so much. It's been a a real privilege to be here today and talk about this. I'm super passionate about what I do, and I hope that this was helpful for your listeners. And, I'm always happy to to brainstorm ideas if you know, and all discovery calls with me are always free. So like Catherine said, feel free to reach out. I'm happy to just hop on a Zoom with you and chat and, see if we might be a a good fit. And it's been really great being on the show, so thank you so much for having me. My pleasure. So don't hesitate to hop on those offers, everyone. Like we said before, all the links will be in the show notes, so don't hesitate. If you have any questions or if you have any ideas of what else we should be covering on the podcast, don't ever hesitate to reach out to me as well. So on that note, have a great one, and start taking better photos, everyone. Bye bye. Thanks for tuning in to the Just Because Podcast. Are you enjoying the content we're creating? We'd love to hear your thoughts and feedback. Thanks for leaving us your wonderful review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and hitting that subscribe button to have access to new episodes as soon as they drop. All of our affiliate partners are hand selected to offer you only tried, tested, and true tools to give your organization the absolute best. Signing up to any of them using our code or link directly supports the podcast and is a great way to say thank you without any extra cost for you. Thanks for being part of the community.