Turning Opposition into Opportunity: Diplomatic Tactics for Nonprofit Leaders with Morgan DeNicola

Hey, lovely listeners!

Join us for an engaging episode of the Just Be Cause Podcast as we dive into the world of diplomacy with Morgan DeNicola, the executive director of the DeNicola Family Foundation. 

Navigate the often tumultuous waters of philanthropy and nonprofit work to uncover the power of diplomacy in driving meaningful social change. 

Can understanding and respect truly bridge the divide in an increasingly polarized world? 

Morgan shares real-life experiences, from advocating in international embassies to fostering dialogue on global issues. Discover how cultural diplomacy and mindfulness can unite diverse stakeholders and explore the transformative potential of engaging in conversations with an open mind and respect. 

How do we break down barriers and build a more inclusive world?

Tune in for a conversation brimming with insights, inspiring stories, and actionable tactics, as we uncover how diplomacy isn't just a tool but a must in today's complex world.

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Transcript

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I support diplomacy just because not only does it benefit your personal and professional life, but it positively benefits the world around you. Welcome to the Just Because podcast. In a space in which the scarcity mindset has been normal for far too long, discover how we're helping nonprofits finally take back their power, find their true purpose, and even use mindfulness to manifest their dream solutions into reality. I'm your host, Catherine Lacefield, a lifetime nonprofit professional. Together, we'll master the tools needed to overcome limitations, rise in times of adversity, and understand the interconnectedness of all causes towards a more conscious philanthropy. Just because is the right thing to do. Everyone, and welcome to yet another episode of the Just Because podcast. And with all this political turmoil happening in across North America, especially at the time of this recording, I really felt that the topic of diplomacy was a very relevant one for the podcast and for this audience. So what I wanna cover is what role does diplomacy have in philanthropy and nonprofit work in general? We often tend to cover or defend touchy topics and advocating for them as well, but, also, we wanna get more people involved. So how can we kind of balance the two? And in this context, diplomacy is a must. So here to talk about it with me is Morgan DeNicolor, the executive director of the DeNicolor Family Foundation and vice chairman of the Humpty Dumpty Institute, love the name, which works around the world to inform and foster dialogue amongst critical stakeholders on key global issues. She's been working closely with US Congress, US Department of State, the United Nations, and international embassies. She engages people to support cultural diplomacy in humanitarian programs, and so I'm very excited to have you on the show to to be able to dive into the question of diplomacy, which as anyway right now, this is April 2025. So if anyone knows what's going on right now, it's a shit show, pardon my French, in The United States and in Canada around diplomatic issues. So, Morgan, this isn't as timely a conversation as ever. Yeah. I I noticed that, and it's funny that I started this journey before the election. And and, I didn't I didn't know what was gonna happen. And it seems like this topic is needed across everything in, you know, from schools to business to personal experience to philanthropy. So, it's really nice to be here and be able to just give my 2¢on what's going on. Mhmm. No. And I think we had started this conversation quite a while ago, and so it's just even more timely now to bring them some real world examples. So to bring it back, let's start by figuring, like, learning more about you and talking about the work you do. So how did you get involved in this whole diplomacy issue to begin with? First, I started out in business and realized, I was not made for that. So I was able to go onto a trip that actually was in Africa to an orphanage. It was a friend of the family was doing this trip, but it was really interesting. They were bringing people, just one member of congress to this orphanage to discuss with the local government what they could do with relations with the, village kind of around the orphanage because some of the villagers were going back in to take the kids out, from getting education to, you know, try to marry them or have them working. So I not only got to see the orphanage and these incredible kids that have been through, you know, really horrendous things, but still striving and learning three or four different languages, and continuing their education, but also I got to kind of hear how government interacts with people, everyday people locally and globally and how they kind of have these very difficult conversations to try to explain certain benefits. So, I came back from that trip. My head was, like, spinning. It was, such an incredible experience, and I realized I don't wanna be in business. I wanna do that. I want to help people, but beyond help people kind of help people talk to one another and and hear one another. So my family was super supportive. I was very lucky about that. And we were able to form first a small charity, but it wasn't official in any way. And then, we were able to, over time, form a family foundation that became very big. And I continued with that group that was working with, Congress and the embassies and global government, just as I I like to say a baby board member, but I wasn't, really on the board in any way. But I I wanted to be a part of it, so I kept asking to kind of volunteer and and help out. And, eventually, I became a board member. And from there, it just became such a big part of the way my brain worked. I was able to work my way up to to becoming vice chair, and I'm still very actively engaged for obvious reasons. And, I I would say it occupies about 50 I'm I'm 50% diplomacy and 50% philanthropy. But I merge the two, and and I find it's the best practice to merge the two. I couldn't agree more, and I love your example because anyone listening if you listen to the example of the orphanage, like, these are some very difficult conversations to have. But if we don't actually address them with the community of, like, why is this situation happening and actually approaching the community with a very open minded okay. How can we actually solve the problem by talking about it together? And I think that's where I would see that the role of diplomacy feels fits in. But just to to clarify, your family foundation, I had I I didn't realize that they had created this after, your own journey. So maybe if you can just explain a bit the role of the family foundation itself in in this role in in the role of of diplomacy and how and all the work that you're doing. Well, the it was its own separate thing. It started out, like, very grassroots. We we were just collecting shoes and filling pantries. And, as we grew, we realized that there was, that need for not only the the cultural diplomacy that we were kind of doing separate. Me and my dad both ended up on the board Mhmm. For that NGO because we both just really were passionate about it. But we pulled it into what we did because, even when you're out to to kind of collect funds, when you're out to collect items, you you, in a way, have to sell the idea, right, of whatever it is you're trying to do. And in order to do that, you wanna get as many people engaged and and curious and wanting to be a part of that. And to do that, you have to be diplomatic. You have to kind of have this way to explain the benefit for literally everybody to be a part of that. So through our experience with the, you know, the NGO, it became a staple of what we do, and especially when we're doing things overseas. It's it's a necessity. I couldn't agree. I thought, like, we've had I've had a couple episodes on the topic where especially with international aid, there's a lot of more touchy issues around diplomacy. There's the whole cultural context that can be very different. One of the episodes that I I love talking about was around animal rights and animal welfare in Africa and how the context is just different. You cannot be, like, pushing forward the same belief systems even around the conception of animal rights in certain parts of Africa that are dependent on animals and livestock for their own survival, for their own well-being. Like, that's a completely different context. And religion and community the way they deal with their own social issues is just so different. So, in your opinion, in all of the the what we just talked about, how do what role does diplomacy have in social change? Like, what does it what do you feel is the positive impact of of investing more time in diplomacy? Diplomacy is understanding. It it's really just taking the time to listen to all perspectives, kind of getting that three sixty view of whatever the situation is. So in order for us to to progress, to make any type of achievement, you need to hear every perspective. You need to hear what everybody believes and thinks in order for us as a whole, our communities, that whole families, that whole, you know, the world as a whole to move forward. So if you want any type of progress, any type of success, it it doesn't really matter even specifically what that is. You need to listen to everyone around you for you to have that idea of what would be the best practice and also the obstacles that you're going to come across because somebody is going to mention exactly what your opposition is going to be if you allow everybody to the table. Mhmm. So you're able to kind of think progressively, proactively, and have everyone involved in a solution that will be the majority satisfied. Obviously, you're not gonna satisfy everybody. That's that's impossible. That's absolutely impossible. But you can at least get people to have that understanding as we go as a community because I think that an allowance of having people hear the like, that you're listening and for you to ask those questions, even if you don't go with their way of thinking, they feel seen and a part of the solution. I think that's the the big part about being diplomatic. It's allowing everybody an opportunity to speak and finding that middle ground where not everybody's gonna be happy, but everybody's gonna be seen and heard, and there's gonna be a compromise. So I think that's kind of the the big part of that. And and any social movement or, evolution of us. It it involves everyone. And I think a lot of times, these are considerations that can happen on such different levels. Like you said, it can be both on the family level on how we make decisions in the household. But even within nonprofit organizations with most of the audience is is I know you guys are working in nonprofits. Like, not just within, like, your own team of, like, how you make decisions moving forward as an organization, but also with the community that you're working with. Is this actually what the programs or services or that you're pushing forward? Or is this what's actually wanted by the community? Especially if your if your inner team or your board doesn't represent that community, which in my opinion is an issue, you should get more people from your community involved in the stakeholder in in the decision making processes of your nonprofit. But even larger than that, if we're thinking on the governmental level or if we're thinking about, like, more widespread changes in advocacy movements, like, I think a big issue is this huge polarization where everyone is just in their own little bubbles of, like, you know, publican, democrat, left, right, or, like, you know, belief systems, and we just hang out and talk to people that have and share the same values or beliefs as us. And does that make us stronger? No. I believe it makes us so weak and that we don't understand if even if your goal is to convince the other side. If you're not talking to them, you don't know why are they so against what we believe in and understanding the why. I have a lot of, like, animal rights examples, and that's something that has come up a lot of, like, why are people not joining the animal rights movement? Why aren't they going vegetarian? Why are they continue if you don't have those conversations and actually have the objective of being curious to understanding the why, then how can we actually find concrete solutions to the problems that we feel we're facing? Yeah. It's impossible. It it is impossible, and a lot of the issues that we have with that is people come at these these issues with, that eagerness to explain their perspective or why they are the way they are rather than kind of coming at the situation more of, a place of curiosity for for the opposition. And and having that, hey, I'm still going to respect you. That's where the problem lies. Mhmm. Is at the end of the day, I'm still gonna respect you even if you don't see things the way I see things, even though I firmly believe whatever it is that I believe or I firmly am gonna keep fighting the fight that I am. But if you come at it from a place of respect and curiosity, which benefits you too, I think people really forget that we can all learn from each other, even somebody that, like, you completely disagree with or you completely see the world totally different. You can learn so much from that person and kind of dive deeper even into why it is you feel the way that you do. So it's everybody. Everybody can win if you have that ability to kind of quiet yourself and really come at it from, hey. I'm I'm curious and going to be respectful, and I'm going to listen to you. And I'm not here to try to change you. I wanna understand you. And that's actually when the change occurs in that moment of of the exchange of an understanding of one another. That is when we move forward. It's not in the standing on your soapbox and really forcing your perspective and your ideas. That's the then you're met with the that opposition and the drag in the heels and the the pushback, and nobody listens to one another. Exactly. And so so super interesting. So I one of the at the time of this recording, one of the latest episodes that I recorded was on the animal advocacy movements, and it was specifically with phonalytics where we dove into data that backed up what are the tactics that actually work for people. So they went to meet people that were either already involved or not. And the tactics that actually not just didn't work in changing behavior, actually had the reverse effect of making people eat more meat. It was these very, disruptive, judging, angry tactics that didn't make people feel listened to or understood at all. And it just made them, oh, yeah. And then they ended up worsening their, quote, unquote, bad behavior. And so if your if our goal is to actually bring about positive change, if that is the end goal of of our movements or of our work in nonprofits, if you're not taking the time to listen to what your opposition or what the people you're trying to change are saying, then what are you trying to do? What are you trying to actually achieve here? So I'd love to hear, Morgan, if you have, like, a do you have a specific example of one of the let's say, either in the the orphanage that you were mentioning earlier or another context where you brought two opposite or opposing sides together and you were dealing with how can we get these people to talk together. Like, what have been the impacts of of of those kinds of situations? Do you have any stories you can share? Well, I can share, like, personal ones. I I'm not really allowed to talk about Yeah. For sure. So much about, certain people we've had at the table, but I, like, here's an example. I had to take somebody around Washington DC and he was, we'll just say, from somewhere in The Middle East, and he was a potential, government electee, potential he was running. And, he came to Washington, and I and where he's from, women don't they're not really leaders. So you could tell when he walked into the building that he was very agitated that I was the one that was bringing him to meet some of these government officials. And I kinda took that moment to to reflect and be like, the the American woman in me wants to kind of be like, what the hell is your problem? Yeah. And get very confrontational. And the the diplomat in me, we can say, says, okay. This is a person who has a completely different culture in another place in the world, and he's incredibly uncomfortable right now. Like, that sucks. That sucks for him. He was prepared to have a guy bring him around. So you know what? I'm gonna figure out a way to make him comfortable and show respect in in every aspect that I can. So any place we went, I always kind of walked behind him, you know? And, I never spoke first, And I kind of didn't make intense eye contact. And I was very humbled in front of him. And I know. I know. Like, being a strong I am a strong, opinionated woman. That that is a difficult thing for me to do. And, but we noticed, I was there with one of my coworkers. His wall started to come down, and he he was starting to kind of relax. And I had said we had a translator. He did not speak English at all. And I said to the translator, hey. Don't tell me anything that he's saying to the people that he's with. Give me tones. So just let me know upset, uncomfortable, and and that kind of thing. But do not tell me anything that is being said, obviously, legal reasons. He's fancy or anything like that. So the interpreter was really great at being like, hey, Like, he's a little uncomfortable. And then I knew, hey, what am I doing? I was able to have those moments of self reflection. And we we we spent the whole day together, and eventually, I could see that he started smiling at me. And, we I would smile back and and, you know, he would open the at one point, he opened the door for me to, like, walk in in front of him. And at the end of the day, he seemed very happy with what had went on. And he asked if the next time he was in The United States, if I would be there. And I would take him around. And I said, absolutely. It would be a pleasure. And, I think they even found me on social media after that and and follow me on social media. And, it was just a very interesting moment of I was able to build this relationship just by having that understanding that there is a difference of opinion. Mhmm. There is a different cultural layer in here. But I showed respect first. And in me showing respect first for his culture and his ideals and the way he he showed me respect, and we kind of met. And it it became this but it was a very beautiful moment, and it's it those things can't be you can't force somebody to respect you. But No. If you show respect, not all the time, but most of the time people notice that, And they let their walls down, and they start to show respect because they don't feel like you're trying to force them into believing or being the way you are. And, I kind of took that with me. And now anytime I'm in a room that is where I start, I start with the respect. Even if it is something that I don't understand or I don't believe. I I've done it several times. We work with the PayPal Foundation. I am an open married lesbian. And, you know meeting with the pope? It was. It was very cool. And, you know, I I wanted to jump to the conclusion that everybody there is anti gay and anti d that's not true at all. There half the room was pro. And were there a handful sprinkled in there that, you know, you knew that they were against it? Yeah. But, again, it was I went about with whatever my mission was, and I continue those relationships, and they do great work that goes beyond whatever they believe about gay marriage or gays. But, like, they're feeding large communities and building schools and houses. So it then kinda goes back to that that question of, like, well, is that a good person? Is that a bad person? What is our mission together? But it starts with that that I give respect first. I think that takes a lot of strength in many ways, and that's why I think from a lot of conversations I've had in a lot of advocacy movements especially, is there's a lot of anger and frustration and feeling that there is a right answer. And unfortunately, I don't believe that there is one right way of doing anything or of of thinking anything. There's no complete only one way works. There's different pros and cons for different situations. And so when you can take the chance to kind of step down from our own ego and just listen of what is gonna be most beneficial to making us be able to have a conversation so we can get to know each other. And like you said, the basis is respect. Respecting that this is still another person. They have their own belief system. We don't necessarily know why or where it comes from. And oftentimes I mean, I'd like to believe that not everyone is a psychopath. Like, it's because they have beliefs because of existing relationships that they've had that have proven that to them, this makes more sense than whatever I believe in. And I think coming at it from that respect angle could just improve so much conversations to actually concretely finding solutions. And in your example, what I love about is that the end, it was you also were able to maybe plant a seed of understanding of maybe there is another way. And isn't that the goal of diplomacy and of having these conversations with the other is to build the how are we actually the same? How can we build those connections and those bridges? And oftentimes, like, it takes one side to start with that respect. And, like, so who do you wanna be? Do you wanna be the person on their guard that's stopping the conversation and the relationship to growing? Or do you wanna be the person that says, you know what? No. I'm gonna be the bigger person, but I'm gonna I'm gonna understand that this is what is needed in this situation for us to have a conversation to begin with. Exactly. And one of the things that I learned originally, I went to school to be a teacher. And one of the things that I was able to learn is children learn best by using examples that are relevant to them. So I kind of use that idea of, like, this could be a person that's never experienced a person like me. This is an opportunity for me to be an example of of representing whatever it is that I want to represent. And if I want to represent whatever it is, I wanna represent it peacefully and with a respect and understanding and compassion. Because if that person if that is their first experience, isn't that much beautiful experience for that person to have and take back and reflect and say to themselves, like, maybe I have a preconceived notion or maybe you know? But if their first experience is you screaming at them your perspective and in no way listening to where they've come from because their their experience is real. You can't say that it's not real. Yep. They're going to to really not look very kindly on whoever, whatever you're trying to represent. That's why you should always have that best foot forward. It's not that you're not being genuine or not being yourself. I'm still very much myself. I'm just being the absolute best version to try to, like you said, plant that seed, of why they might want to engage with more people like me or be a part of whatever it is that I'm attempting to do philanthropically or charitably. And, because we can have that connection, and they could be like, well, no. No. That's a person that even though I'm not a % behind it. But you know what? I might wanna support them because they respected me, and they were kind to me. And you know what? I'm I'm I'm gonna join them. I'm gonna join them for this. And that that is when you get those those movements, and they're very small. Yes. But that's how it starts. You gotta walk before you run. Right? I hope so. If not, that's fine. Just imagine this little baby just, like, standing up and, like, running away and going to learn it. Right. Just go for it. This this this conversation reminds me so much of of a book that I absolutely love by Malcolm Gladwell called Talking to Strangers. I'll put the link in the show notes for anyone that's interested in learning more. And he talks a lot about these divides between populations. It's often because these different groups that have opposing beliefs just don't often interact. And the most useful and sustainable way of actually bridging these gaps, it's not through policy. It's not through it's by having these people spend more time together and have positive experiences. So exactly like you said, by building individually, we can build more positive experiences of our opposing party with us, then we're allowing them to start being more curious about understanding our position. We can actually start, you know, making that gap smaller and smaller until we can actually meet our meet each other halfway. Because no matter what extreme position we're on, if you're on an extreme, you're most likely not gonna be able to get everyone on board. So unless we can start making us meet towards a middle point that we both feel comfortable with, we're not moving forward. And I thought that was really important as a as a lesson of, yes, we can change the laws. Yes, we can force people to change their behavior with these rules. But is that actually gonna change their behavior? Or are we gonna constantly have to whip them into place? Is that really what we want? And that's when you meet the more extreme opposition. There's no understanding. It's just I'm not going to do this because I am forced to do this. And and force never creates change. Force creates resistance and extremism. Mhmm. So for anyone listening, I'd love to hear if you have any, like, specific tactics or let's say for someone who wants to incorporate more, more of a diplomatic approach to either their advocacy or just their community work. Do you have, like, I I don't know, a couple different tactics that you would recommend starting with, or how can people incorporate this more into the work they're doing? I think it starts personal. Mhmm. I I think because it everything that we do on a personal level bleeds into what we do in a professional level. So I actually think it starts, you know, at home. It starts with, you kind of holding up a mirror. Who do I converse with? Who do I surround myself with? Who am I willing to have a conversation with? Why do I feel reactive when certain topics come up? Because once you start engaging in those conversations and that kind of reflecting on your behavior, you'll pull it into work, and you'll be like, you know what? I realized that on our donors, it's primarily men. Why aren't we engaging with more women? You start to notice those things and thinking like, oh, okay. Well, let's start being more inclusive in the donors that we're going after. Oh, well, we seem to, like, not get as many women. Yeah. But who's going out and who's doing it? You know what? I'm gonna take the lead on that, and I'm gonna try it. But it it all has to kind of, like, start at home and find out what your tolerance level is. I I I don't think that anybody should should run out and knock on the door of their their opposition. Be like, let's try it. I I think it, you know, it it should be like some baby steps. Yeah. And figure out your tolerance level in some of these conversations and what it takes to to breathe through. Like, our big thing is, respond, don't react. So you take those extra twenty, thirty seconds to really kind of listen, take a deep breath, calm whatever is going on inside of you. But it's also learning what your mission what is your mission? What is your mission? If your mission is to build a community center, then you should do everything in your power to build that community center. And you shouldn't say, well, I don't like this corporation, so I'm not gonna take that corporate donor's dollar because morally, they donate to big oil. Okay. Well, then you're never gonna get that community center built. What is your mission? And what are you willing to do to get that mission done? And and I think that's also kind of a something we forget because we're always standing on those again, those soapbox of, like, morality. And, we could have those arguments till we're blue in the face, and they're gonna differ from person to person, experience to experience, location time. You know, all of that stuff is gonna come into play. But whenever I have a a project that I'm doing, I look at what my end goal is, my mission. I look at who I have lined up that I'm going to try to get involved in it. I try to diversify that. Yeah. And I ask a whole lot of questions, of those potential donors or those potential volunteers of, like, what do you wanna see? How do you feel when you hear about this? And you continue to grow and learn and then involve everybody. Everybody who is willing to be a part of your solution. Really let them and continue to build these communities of good. And and have these these more, interesting conversations in your personal and professional life. Allow it. Yeah. And allow your yourself to have the possibility to change your opinion. Which is super important because I think we sometimes identify who we are as a person with our beliefs and that if we change our beliefs that we are no longer the same person that we're, like, disrespecting ourselves. But the only you know, that is a typical thing of the only constant thing in in life is change. So you will constantly be evolving and changing, and it's not because you change your opinion or you evolve. Like, that doesn't mean that it's bad. You can you you are allowed to change your opinion as more information comes into play. Even in scientific research, things that were considered as this is a fact. As more information comes in or as other factors are taken into consideration, that fact may no longer be a fact. And so we have to allow ourselves to adapt to these new situations. It's the allowance of the we we say the elasticity of growth. Mhmm. We we all are like rubber bands. Right? We we can go back to opinions that we've had. We can outgrow those opinions that we have. We have to have that ability to keep growing and going back and learning. And and but I think we also have to allow that in other people. Yeah. And not be like, well, you didn't well, you said this a year ago. Like, don't also, don't do that to other people because you don't know what could have happened. Exactly. And you need to give them that grace and space, and you need to give yourself that and, really just continue to and and get uncomfortable. Growth occurs when you're uncomfortable. Have the uncomfortable conversation. Surround yourself with somebody that might make you shift in your seat a little bit because you're gonna learn. Yeah. So from what I've been I've been learning so much from having conversations with people that don't think the same as you much more than you will if you're just constantly in this, like, you know, reverb of just listening to yourself talk almost with, people that believe in you. So from what I'm hearing from what you're saying, number one is well, I left about what you were saying about figuring out who's also not in the room. And I'll give a little concrete example of I did a database analysis for an environmental legal defense group in Canada. And when we did a database analysis, we realized that they had no youth. And if we look at from a statistical perspective of who donates most to to environmental causes, it's actually younger generations. So we realized, like, we're missing a piece of the puzzle here. And so then we started looking into the tactics. Is it because like, why aren't we, like, attracting these people to our cause? And so we were able to actually increase or add in some new acquisition strategies to target those communities that are not being reached by our by our communications. So that was one thing that I think is really interesting what you said of not just figuring out who do you have around the table, but who do you not have around the table? So that one so number one, that's a great one. Number two, I really like the fact that you brought up things that, like, everything has to start with you. If you as a nonprofit leader or someone working in the space are not incorporating this into your own life, how do you expect to bring it to work when that is not who you are or what you're doing on a regular basis? So number two. I love that one. Number three, what you were mentioning around, you know, having those uncomfortable conversations of, like, going out and asking different people that you wouldn't necessarily have asked to before for advice. Do some surveys, do some community outreach, and you might get some negative feedback, which is great. You want that constructive criticism. You want to have people saying, well, you know, like, I really I don't go to York Center because this program doesn't feel right with me. So I think that was great. And the fourth one around the morality and ethics around, let's say, who do you invite around the table? And I do believe that comes a lot from a preexisting notion on judgment. And exactly like you said, I've had these conversations with some of my clients. They're like, well, if I had to start having this ethical decision around every donor, like, would I have to do a filter of every individual donor that comes through my doors of, like, where do they work for an oil company? Are they working for it becomes very difficult. Now that isn't to say that I don't think you should have some ethical regulations that go against your values as, like, a a starting point, but that might not be a forever rule. And you might have exceptions based on let's say the company, it's an oil company. We'll use the same example. But they are divesting in their reinvesting all of their capital into green energy or they're trying to fund the transition. Do we want to discourage the industry that like, from investing in sustainable options? There's never a black or white situation in most cases. So I love that it's about staying open minded and curious to understanding why would they want to. Of course, if it's a greenwashing tactic, maybe it's not aligned. Doesn't mean you have to accept everything. So I love what you said about just, like, kind of being more curious about the situation and being more open minded, I think, can be much more, diplomatic and allow for more of those conversations to take place. Absolutely. And there's like like you were saying, there's there's the extremes for obvious I'm not saying, you know, like, take money from a serial killer. Yeah. Like like, obviously, there is going to be lines that you will draw that I mean, especially if it's, like, counter, like you said, to whatever it is you're trying to achieve. Yeah. But it's it's you need to have that openness, and it kind of goes back to you might be the thing that triggers that company to think, you know what? I really enjoyed that stream cleanup that we did, and maybe we should, invest in or or sponsor that every year. Or you could be the catalyst for somebody thinking differently. I mean, I've done it, and I never in a million years thought I would. It's possible, but you have to have that willingness to do it and to involve them and be like, hey. I I see the good in you. I I respect for you, Stan. But, like, hey. Come just join. Come just join. Tell me your perspective. Tell me your thoughts, and and let's see where it goes from there. Have every conversation from a place of curiosity and respect. I love that example that you brought up because it just made me think of so many times where we don't allow people to be part of the movement because we we assume that they're bad. And so what are we doing? We're creating those extremes. We're creating the opposite of we're not allowing you to be part of improving because we don't wanna touch your dirty money or whatever it may be. And so how is that actually productive? How are we actually trying to get these companies, individuals, groups to come to table and to learn if we're not inviting them? And, like, I feel like it's like kids, you know, like, that kid that's bullying everyone and then no one ever invites him to to the party. To the birthday party. Right? Yeah. So he's just like, well, I don't like you either. And then Keep bullying. So it's I just feel like that's a great childhood example of just, like, when you start inviting the bully to the parties and he starts feeling loved and as cheesy as that sounds, then children feel more accepted. It will like, we're all children. I supposed to feel we're all still children that wanna be accepted and they wanna do the right thing. Or at least I hope to believe that that is kind of what everyone is doing the best they can. And that's, I think, one of the biggest lessons I've heard from this conversation is just, like, looking at that other side as they're still human beings, they're still people. And they are. And, you know, I I get especially in philanthropy and charity, man, we get burnt out. We do see the bad every day because we're trying to come up with solutions to the bad. So exhausting. It is exhausting. It is depressing. It is anxiety filled, but it is our job. It is literally our job to still see and be the good in the world. That is what you signed up to do. So you should do that. You should still try to see the good in people even if day in and day out you don't. Don't lose that that faith, for lack of a better word, but that faith in your ability to create that change and in that person's ability to do or be something good. Sometimes, like you said, inviting the bully to the table is what changes it. It does. And on that note, from everything that we're talking about, I hope that one the biggest takeaway for people who are listening is being curious, being more open minded, inviting the more scary people to the table, and having more positive work. Just having more conversations. They might not even be positive, actually. Alright. So, Morgan, what are the best ways that people want to follow the work you're doing, learn more about the the different, projects that you're working on? What is the best way to contact you or communicate? We have a website, the denicola family foundation Org, and you can see what we're up to on there. But there's also a contact us page, and that goes directly to me. No strangers. I read all of those. So that is a great way to reach out. I live by my phone, so every time it dings, I immediately read those. But you also can find us on Facebook and Instagram, Danacola Family Foundation. And, again, if you message either of those, that is also me. And you can find me personally, Morgan Sliker, Denicola, that's my married name with my name, on Instagram, Facebook, if you want TikTok, but that's mostly just me cooking. I mean, it could be interesting. Yeah. Alright. So all of these links will be I'll put them in the show notes for anyone who wants to connect with Morgan and just follow more of the work that they're doing because I honestly feel this is what is needed in the sector even more so today when everyone seems to be hating everyone. We need to get together. The only way of moving forward, in my opinion, is by actually working together as cheesy as that sounds. So thank you so much for sharing some very concrete tactics that everyone has the power to implement in their own lives today. You don't have to wait for a new policy. You can do this now. So listen to the episode again if you have to to start taking some mental notes of how can I have one more curious minded or curious directed conversation to really help bridge that gap between those who, don't necessarily agree with me? So thank you so much for all of the amazing advice you shared, Morgan. Thank you. This is wonderful. Thanks for tuning in to the Just Because podcast. 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