From Zoos & Conservation to Army Veterinarian: Brian Joseph's Journey to Making a Difference

Hey, wonderful audience!

Join us on this captivating episode of the Just Be Cause Podcast, where we're thrilled to chat with the remarkable Dr.Brian Edward Joseph. With his extensive experience as a global and veteran veterinarian, nonprofit leader and educator, Brian takes us on a journey exploring the deep interconnections between animal welfare, environmental conservation, and community well-being. How can compassion bridge the gap between humans and animals, creating a ripple effect of positive change?

In our conversation, we'll dive into the transformative work at the San Diego Living Coast Nature Center, highlighting the vital role of local community support and education. Discover how Brian's leadership helped pivot nonprofits like the Living Coast Discovery Center during tough economic times. We'll also delve into the often-debated role of zoos in conservation and how they can inspire future generations to care about the natural world.

Plus, from his heartwarming books about canine companions to his humanitarian missions with the army's veterinary corps, Brian shares how every action can contribute to making the world a better place. How can small actions of love and empathy lead to a larger impact? Tune in for an inspiring and insightful episode that beautifully weaves the story of interconnected causes into a more conscious philanthropy.

Get ready for a journey of empathy, curiosity, and inspiration!

Brian's website

Books:

I Wish the Rainbow Bridge Had Visiting Hours

I Wish the Rainbow Bridge Had Fewer Paw Prints

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With over 20 years of experience in the nonprofit and philanthropic sectors, I help organizations optimize their operations with key knowledge in various domains, such as fundraising strategy, grantmaking research, communications, and development.

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Transcript

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I support the living earth just because all life is connected, which means that we have to care and love for it. Welcome to the Just Because podcast. In a space in which the scarcity mindset has been normal for far too long, discover how we're helping nonprofits finally take back their power, find their true purpose, and even use mindfulness to manifest their dream solutions into reality. I'm your host, Catherine Lacefield, a lifetime nonprofit professional. Together, we'll master the tools needed to overcome limitations, rise in times of adversity, and understand the interconnectedness of all causes towards a more conscious philanthropy. Just because it's the right thing to do. Hi, everyone, and welcome to yet another episode of the Just Because podcast. And I'm very excited today to have Brian with me because Brian has a very wide range of experiences that touch on many of the topics that I'm a big fan of, including being a global vet, which I have not met many of them, vets who travel the world, as well as being a public servant, an educator, and having worked in both the army, as well as zoos and aquariums all over North America and Asia. He also does volunteer training of veterinarians and farmers in developing countries. So his experience ranges what most people won't be able to even do in one lifetime. Not only that, is he's also the author of two books, which I'm very excited to talk about during the episode. So without further ado, Brian, welcome to the show. Thank you, Catherine. Thank you for the opportunity to chat. You're you're very kind. I've just been a very fortunate person. Well, not everyone with that kind of, opportunities would choose to do what you did, so that is very amazing. Let's get straight to it because I feel like there's so much we need to cover with your vast experience that we can talk all day. I know we've already had long conversations, so I'd love for you to maybe just introduce yourself quickly how you got to do what you were doing, especially more like what was young Brian doing? Like, how did you get into the animal environmental space to get to where you are, of course, today with so much years of experience behind you. Sure. Thanks for the opportunity. Tracing back to young Brian, young Brian became interested in animals very, very early in life. When I was maybe three and four years old, we used to spend my mother and I spent two weeks a year on her aunt's farm and she had about 12 dairy cows and I would walk in the fields with the dairy cows even though they were monumentally larger than me. Invariably, I would step in cow poop someplace along the way too but that didn't deter me is I grew up in Southern California. I was very interested in all life, animals that lived in the water, animals that lived on shore. My first dog I was around was a collared shepherd that belonged to my grandma, and he was my constant companion. So that interest in animals and biology carried on through school. But early on, I thought I might wanna be a teacher. The reason I wanted to be a teacher was because I would have summers off to do whatever I wanted. Fortunately, my starter wife said, you don't wanna be a teacher. You wanna work with animals. And the opportunity came up to work at the San Diego Zoo as an animal keeper, which I did, and earned my bachelor's degree and a master's degree, worked at SeaWorld and went to veterinary school. And veterinary school is what has allowed me to do so many things. This veterinary school not only trains you about animal medicine, but it trains you about working in chaos and working with people. So that's really opened the door for me to do a lot of work and I always seek out opportunities. I feel that everyone should define themselves by something. And the three words that define me are empathy, curiosity and humility. And I feel because of my education, I have the responsibility to make the world a better place. So that's my goal every day is to try to make the world a better place in some way. That's been my goal since I'm a little girl as well. But I always said, you know, I wanna save the world even if maybe the world doesn't need saving, but I think we can all improve it slightly. Who knows? So I'd like to start with that work that you were doing in San Diego, especially at the Living Coast Nature Center. We had talked about it in the past. And what I loved about that conversation and that part was really the fact that it wasn't just about the nature component, but it was also about the importance that it had for the local community. So if you could just maybe talk about what was your work, at the San Diego Living Coast Nature Center, and how did that end up becoming a really important part of the community around it? That's really a a great subject and it's actually one of the things that I'm proudest of in life. I grew up in a small town in in the South Of San Diego, Chula Vista. Within Chula Vista is Living Coast Discovery Center and it's right in the middle of the Sweetwater National Wildlife Reserve, occupies three acres. It's in a community that is largely Hispanic. In fact, other demographics of the people that go to the Nature Center are largely single Hispanic mothers with multiple children and they can't necessarily afford to go to the San Diego Zoo. They can't necessarily afford to go to SeaWorld but they can go to the Nature Center. So when I moved back to San Diego, it was, 02/2005 and I was on the board of Living Coast Discovery Center when a big recession occurred about 02/2009. City of Chula Vista had always supported the Nature Center fully and they decided to shut the doors. They said we can't afford it. So I was on the board and they said this can't happen. This is too important to the community. And the board said, okay, Mr. Smarty Pants, can you tell us what we did? So what do you do about it? Right. So we transitioned in very austere conditions to a nonprofit and our city funding dropped to 10% but we kept the center open. And we the reason that was important to me, there were a couple of reasons. One was because I grew up in the community and the community helped shape me. It was largely a farming community when I was young but more importantly, there are a lot of underprivileged children there that needed good role models and need to learn to care about life. So one of the things that we did, which I'm very proud about, is we hired all women graduate students who were bilingual to teach our summer classes. So they were able to serve as role models for these young Hispanic children. Also took two of my dogs to work every day and the kids were able to interact with the dogs. They would take a stethoscope, listen to their heart, look in their mouth and probably develop a different relationship with dogs than the dogs they were used to being around. So it was a really difficult job. I finally left because I was afraid I was an impediment to the future because I'd stepped on so many toes, but the center is still open today. Well, and that's I mean, that's that's not a legacy. I don't know what is of making sure that a center like that can use. And this is this important connection between sometimes in nature and having access to nature. It's not just about developing this more compassion towards our the living world, but it's also about teaching science and also how they can have compassion more widely, but also bringing up these people, these children in a context that they can see their future in it as much more bright. But what I love about this story, if for anyone listening that knows me and has been listening to this podcast, this interconnection of causes of there's an educational component. There's a social well-being component. There's a community component. And, of course, there's dog component because, you know, everyone should have dogs wherever they go. As as we all know, they are the solution to every problem. But one of the things that you had mentioned a lot in in one of our past conversations was I really liked what you said is that you weren't there to teach facts about science, but teaching compassion and interest in the natural world. And I think that's the basic important fact. It's not just about knowing which species of tree that is or which species of of fish that is, but also just being interested. And and once you trigger that in children, I feel like that can have such amazing long term effects. I agree and and to me, that's the most important thing. As I shared before, I don't care if children learn facts. But what I do care about is they learn to love all forms of life and they learn that we have responsibility for that as well. People have a lot of ability to destroy things. People have a lot of ability to over utilize resources. People have a lot of ability to be unkind. But sometime when they're young, they need to learn love and compassion. I think that's the basis of everything. And and I remember even I was, reading a study recently on donor retention, and they were saying that one of the biggest factors that would be able to predict if someone will be a long term retention like, they will, be a long term donor that will be really committed as a donor. It was their history as a philanthropist, as a child. So, like, if their family was encouraging giving, they were much more likely to do the same later on. So we see how important growing up, who are our role models, what are we being taught about the natural world, is it just a source of exploitation and entertainment, or is it actually there to teach us something and that we can interact with it in a very healthy way? So having that model for that community where they can go and have access to nature in a much more healthy, balanced, holistic approach, I think has huge impacts on those communities and on those children, of course, for generations to come. I agree. And one of the most important things about it is many of us don't learn by reading. Many of us don't learn by watching videos, but if we see and touch, even smell a living thing, it makes a connection. It's three-dimensional. Uh-huh. A % agree. And, like, just thinking about my own stepson who he loves and he can absorb YouTube videos. Like, there's no tomorrow. Like, he'll be able to tell you the story, the history of trains, and, like, he he that's what he absorbs the most. I'm a reader. I love reading. Mhmm. But when you can combine all of these different learning experiences I remember when I was studying about making those mental connections of making jokes, telling stories, and experiences, you can really ingrain that information much deeply much more deeply. And I remember I did a semester abroad in Panama where we did a biology class where we got to go in person to all of these different forests Mhmm. In the country and literally live the different ecosystems in person. We got to touch the plants, see the plants. He said, smell the plants. And it really that is the semester that of all of my four years of university that I remember the most because of the in person interactive approach. And I feel, especially for younger children, sitting down at a desk, they're like, I don't know how efficient that is for most children. Right. I feel like going out and experiencing it, they're gonna be able to share the stories. And once you you convert a lesson into your own personal story and experience, you're much more likely to remember it long term. Well, the advantage of stories is they carry emotion. If if you're just reading, you're good if you're gonna retain reading. I can't retain anything I read. I I have to touch it. Bookworm. I have to I enjoy reading, but I have to touch it and I have to do it to retain it. Mhmm. I think a lot of children are that way. So they %. I was really proud of that work. The mentorship for the young children, I think, was probably the most important thing that happened there. Definitely. And, of course, it was in a very difficult situation. So let's let's go back a bit around the question of funding because, of course, this is a very fundraising focused nonprofit. Sorry. Kind of fundraising focused podcast. So I know this was also not the only time that you dealt with a funding model transition. Mhmm. So you also did similarly in, in a zoo where you're transitioning from a for profit to a nonprofit model. So I'd like to for anyone that's dealing with these kind of issues, how do you feel was like, what would you recommend as first step when you're dealing with a huge transition? How would you approach it, and how did you replace 90% of your funding? And, of course, any suggestions or advice you would give for anyone dealing with that situation? Yeah. It's a really tough situation, and I think one of the key things to be successful is you have to have a very committed board. And I had a few board members that said, well, let's just turn in the keys. And you can't do that. I had a board president who agreed with me that we were the equivalent of the Greeks burning the ships on the beach, that we had to move forward, we had to find a mean to succeed. So you work with donors and you work with the community and you find what donors care about. That is really the key. And there's a lot of competition for donations. If you think about San Diego, there's huge hospitals, the San Diego Zoo, the USS Midway, lots of very good organizations that are all doing really good work. So as a small organization, it's really challenging to be competitive. One of the things that we did is we engaged a very talented fundraiser, her name is Renee Harrell in San Diego. And Renee basically taught our board how to be a board, taught our board how to do fundraising and helped me develop a business plan. Business plan is really important. It's not enough to say, well, we need$2,000,000 You need to know what you're gonna do with that$2,000,000 not just today but five years down the road. So it really takes strong leadership and if you have gaps in your ability, you need to get a fundraiser that's very well experienced that also feels the passion for your cause because that's really what it's all about. It's about the passion for your cause, finding your donors appealing to what they care for because everybody's got their hand out and showing them that you've invested the money well. So with our programs with Hispanic children, we could show that we're investing this money well. We could also through the local economic impact folks show that we had an economic impact to the community. And we reached across the border. We reached to the Tijuana, and we did courses for Tijuana Educators. They came up, and so they amplified the message. They took it across the border. So it requires commitment, ability, more than anything else, passion. I completely agree. And this is why whenever I work with new nonprofits, I definitely have a very huge bias to organizations whose mission calls to me because I know I'll do a better job as a fundraiser. I can, on paper, fundraise for any organization. Will I do it with as much passion? No. And that's not being that's just being real and being human of of course, as you you can see my dog was with me right now. I am a big animal environment person. So, of course, if I am a fundraiser, I'll be able to inject so much more passion into my messages into the strategy just because I know the cost so much more. I know how people that like the cost think. And so having that fundraising plan and having a fundraiser to assist you along the way is very important. And I'm not just saying this because I'm a fundraising consultant myself, but, yes, I am gonna plug it there. I have worked with organizations that have the passion, but they don't have the fundraising know how. And this is something that, like any profession out there, would you try to do your accounting on your own and not have an accountant? Maybe. Will it be successful? Probably not. So would you being your own lawyer, being your own accountant, like, there's only so much you can do and you will hit a wall. When you're dealing with this huge problem of transitioning models. Starting fundraising from scratch, having a professional that can coach you and support you along the way, I think, is a huge part of the success. Because like you said, with the business plan, you need a fundraising plan as well. How are you gonna reach that 2,000,000? Is 2,000,000 even possible? Have you done a feasibility assessment? Do we have enough donors as prospects to even reach that objective? I've done assessments and an analysis for people in their database where I'm like, your current database, even if everyone gave the maximum they've ever donated, you wouldn't reach your fundraising objective. So is that fundraising objective realistic at this current moment? Okay. So then how are we gonna go reach out to other people to fill that gap? And having that transition time is also important. And so quick question, how long did it take like, how much do you feel like was the transition from government funding to nonprofit? Or and or in the Duke, which we will talk about next, how long do you feel it takes to transition funding models? Sure. What was your experience? That's a really great question. And before I answer that, I have to say that we couldn't have done it without Renee's help. Mhmm. We we couldn't we couldn't have been successful. Not at all. But it took, in very different difficult economic times, it took, it took three years to be I was gonna say that. And we had a finance board and the finance board wanted to close us too. They said this is not feasible. And fortunately, we had one donor, a retired army ophthalmologist, Larry Werglin, that Larry gave very, very generously when we needed money for payroll. And my wife and I donated our life savings to pay payroll. And we did something very bold when we were short money. I cut my salary to 50% and I cut my four managers to 80% and did not cut the line workers at all. So that saved money and kept everybody working. And I think not only is that important to keep everyone working, but leaders need to show dedication and they need to show that they're willing to take less to keep their worker bees working. And this is where I would say this is a big difference to what most for profit corporations would do, where to keep shareholders and profit, the ones that are making profit happy, they'll cut in their workers so that they can keep their profit margins high. And that is just not sustainable long term. There's this switch I remember when I was doing my management one zero one class in university where they were showing alternative models of businesses that did exactly that. They said, this year, we're gonna cut into our profits to make sure that our business stays open, that everyone keeps their jobs. And what did that build? Built this sense of loyalty and commitment in the whole team that their employees felt like this was more than just a job. It became, this is our family, this is a community, and we're in it in the long run. And I think in the nonprofit sector, of course, you would think that this is generally what would happen. But having examples like this where management will actually make those decisions that are necessary to keep the organization going, while, of course, it's not ideal, I mean, I think you deserved a % of your salary, it's not bad, but there are sometimes sacrifices that need to be made. And it's beautiful to see that it's not necessarily the frontline workers that are the ones bearing the brunt as they tend to usually do. Well, I formed, as you say, everywhere I've ever worked in my life, I've I've fought against corporate structure, and I've worked towards family structure. And I make sure I know every employee. I know their family. I know what they care about. And the teamwork was such at the Living Coast Discovery Center that we very frequently had after hour events, weekend events, And every staff member from top to bottom stayed for those events, whether they were paid or not. They stayed after the event, cleaned everything up because it was a team, it was a family, and we all had a common goal. Mhmm. And that's something that I think should be really encouraged in the nonprofit space because at the end of the day, it's very hard for nonprofits to compete with for profit salaries. Generally speaking, in the nonprofit world, as much as that, I wish it wasn't the case, you will be paid less. But what you're gonna be gaining is other types of validation, other types of resources that will help you grow in a different way. You won't wanna be you're not gonna be looking at the clock

until it's, like, it's 04: 20:44

59. I have to clock out at five, and then you're running out the door in a nonprofit setting. I feel like I would I remember when I was working in animal shelter, we'd be they would say, would you guys mind going into the cat room and helping socialize the cats? I'm like, oh, sit in a room with 30 cats that are running around and playing with toys. Help me in. I was, of course, heading towards the the emergency shelters to help socialize dogs because we were passionate about it. And it was encouraged and obviously very much appreciated. So let's let's switch to the zoo con con question because, personally, as someone have was worked in animal rights for many years, there's a lot of controversies around zoos and their roles in conservation. And we I really loved your approach of it. So I'd love to hear from your perspective having worked in a zoo, what do you feel is their role in conservation? Because I feel like there's a lot of misunderstanding around what can they actually bring to the table. That's a really good question. And and, as I mentioned, I started working at San Diego Zoo when I was pretty young. I was 22. And that was, as an animal keeper, that was the very best job I've ever had in my life, working with the animals all day long, hardly interacting with other people. It's a wonderful job. But I had a misunderstanding at that point. I really thought that zoos and aquariums were animal refuges. And I thought that we'll use zoos and aquariums to preserve these species and then we'll be able to reintroduce them to the wild. What I didn't understand was the basic problem was human overpopulation, human overconsumption of resources and climate change. There were people talking about climate change in the 1950s and no one listened. So the way my evolution is I've always had trouble with zoos and aquariums, still do. And there are certain animals that I don't believe should be in zoos and aquariums. And the reason for that is no animal should be in a zoo or aquarium unless you can give most of not or not all of its opportunities to behave naturally. So unless you can give them the opportunities to have the social stimulation, environmental stimulation they would in the wild, you shouldn't have them, it's that simple. But the role of zoos and aquarium really and they don't always do it well is not to teach facts again but to inspire people to care. That's all you have to do. And I don't know what can inspire people to care more than either animals or babies. If someone doesn't like animals or babies They're psychopaths. Theirs theirs they should run for president of The United States because there's something seriously wrong with that. Yes. No. I completely agree. And this is where there is this I wrote a paper when I was in university on when we're talking about environmental philosophy, and it was at the end of the day, if all we had left were zoos, would we feel like we've saved nature? Right. And no. But what I like about your approach is that the zoos are not for the animals themselves, unfortunately. It's for the people. We're there to teach people, okay. You like seeing you won't have access to megafauna if you're living in New York City. Or if you're living in any metropolitan area, you might not have access to it. And we don't consider our local park with squirrels as nature anymore. But if we did, if we could go and live that magic of, oh my god, this is what it could look like, that can inspire to actually invest and support conservation projects in in the wild. This is where, as an ex extremist, I've kind of not shifted of, like, I don't necessarily agree with the zoos in general and our aquariums, especially that they're not often doing it right, quote, unquote. But in a it theoretically, if a zoo these animals were never gonna be able to be reintroduced to the wild because it's too far gone or whatever. They were born in captivity, and there's no there's no likelihood that they can. If we can offer them the opportunity to live as good a life as possible while also educating a next generation to actually serve the original species in their natural habitat, I feel like that is the best that we can do with these animals. We can make the best of a sorry, for my language, of a shitty situation. Of course, one of the issues that I had was this constant battle between as a public, quote, unquote, entertainment. Like, people want to see the animals. And if we were to actually give these animals what they would need, which from what I remember from my paper, it was let's say if it's if you have a an enclosure, you'd only have one of the sides that is open so people can see the animals. So the the animals can hide if they feel stressed or are scared. But if we do that and people come to an enclosure and there's no animals, what's the attraction of going to the zoo? And this is where if you're funded based on ticket sales or on donations for people who want to see animals, there can kind of be this conflict that comes into play, which is a very difficult situation, I imagine, for a zoo that's dependent on people coming to see the animals. It is a very difficult situation, but there's things you can do. When when I was at the Minnesota Zoo, we had very expansive exhibits and we had large herds of ungulates and sometimes people complained that the animals were too far away but the animals were living their life. And we did a very interesting thing with our Minnesota terrestrial animals, carnivores like otters, raccoons, badgers, is we had three sets of animals and we rotated them on exhibit. So when they're on exhibit, they're investigating what all the other animals were doing just like they would in the wild. So then I don't feel bad about that. The other piece of it that I feel zoos and aquariums have a big responsibility for is local conservation and local partner conservation with like minded organizations, especially children because that's a way of influencing outside your walls. And that rather than say, oh, we wanna save the Siberian tiger, which is important, but let's save the local animals too, the local marshes, the local estuaries, the local forest areas. So I think zoos should budget, and I know one zoo that budgets the, Fort Wayne, Indiana Zoo budgets 5% of their total budget to conservation programs. What I'd like to see institutions budget twenty, twenty five, thirty percent of their budget to that kind of project to try to make a difference. Yeah. And also that question of I remember when I was in Panama again, I did a project on in this local park that was in it's a mountain. Those they were doing conservation on this hill in the middle of this giant city that still had deer. It still had all these amazing, beautiful tropical birds, monkeys. And when one of the activities I did with these children was to ask them to draw nature. And what came out the most is these these people are living in a tropical area where there is lots of very interesting animals, and yet they were drawing lions and tigers and giraffes as if, like, we don't associate the nature in our own backyard as nature worth conserving. It's almost like it has to be exotic place far away from us. And so I love what you're saying about local conservation because there's a lot of wetlands that are being completely destroyed and local forests and keystone species that we are losing. But because we don't have as much media coverage of the exciting little amphibian that is going extinct, but that plays a very important role in the ecosystem, it it's not being shared as much and people are not seeing or hearing about it. So I love that fact of the role of zoos can be not just in conserving and spreading awareness about animals in far distant lands, but also locally and maybe having keeping a part of your zoo that is just this is what your local ecosystem looks like. But when you see it in a zoo context, you might look at it differently and think, oh, like, I never thought of wanting to maybe conserve our own local ecosystem. So that's a very interesting approach that I hadn't really thought of before. Yeah. That's, the whole purpose of Living Coast Discovery Center was on San Diego Bay and the areas around it. All the animals there were from probably within no more than 15 miles from the place. I think that's important but I understand and agree with you. Right now in the town that I live, it's, largely forested, but there's a developer who's coming in from Southern California and he wants to cut down about a thousand acres of forest to build high end houses. Now that forest is inhabited by bears and raccoons and possums and squirrels and birds and yet, I don't think most of the local people will relate to that and say, well, that shouldn't happen because there's our animals live there. So I think in the in the it breaks my heart that there's this tragic disconnect between the living Earth and surviving on the living Earth and that there are some people who are more interested in profit and so called advancing civilization than they are in living in harmony with the earth. And I feel like that's shooting ourselves in the foot in the long term, and I think that's what we're starting to see is that, yes, we can develop, but at the end of the day, people are still escaping. Like, people come to tropical places because they miss that connection with They do. Still want that. We just we think that we we also want the the modern living of super cold, but we aren't generally happy because we are losing that natural frequency that nature actually heals us. They have these now Right. They call them like, I think they call, like, forest paths where you just go into the forest and just let the frequency heal you because nature itself in connection with animals, we know the therapeutic benefits of animals. But nature as a whole is so therapeutic. And I think that that's what we're slowly I'm seeing a transition that people are starting to go back to that, and this is where zoos can if that is their objective and if that is their purpose, they can start having more of that educational thing. But, of course, we're talking about nonprofit zoos that have a mission beyond making profit. When we're looking at for profit zoos, generally speaking, that's not their objective. It's just to make it as exciting for people. So let's just make a little caveat here around the types of of of institutions we're talking about here. But also, Brian, so I know you also became a vet at some point. So how did that come to be? If you've been working with animals, but then you also became a vet, and then you end up working in the army as a vet. So, please, how how did that come to be? You're like a vet in a vet vet. That that's correct. Well, it was a long time coming. I I didn't go to veterinary school till I was 29 years old. Most people probably go when they're 22, 20 one. And the reason I went was that I thought I'd seen things that I didn't think animals were treated as well as they should be. And I felt as a veterinarian I could make a greater difference. So it was a real tough thing for me to do because I'm not an inside person. I wasn't the smartest guy in the room. I really loved working at the store outside with animals. And I went to veterinary school, and I had no intention of coming back to SeaWorld, but I did. And, that really served as a platform to take me to zoos around the country that I've worked in around the world. And the army thing came very, very much later, very much later. And it's an interesting story that not everybody knows, but I was 56 years old. So I was not a kid. And I was going to a federated conference in San Diego when we have the biggest fire we'd ever had in San Diego County. I could see the flames, I could see the smoke. And as I drove down, I thought, there's really not very much that a private veteran can do to help people in the event of a man made or a natural disaster. I go to the Veterinary Conference, but that side is that thought aside. And there's an army reserve veterinary court booth there. Well, I I'm the least militaristic person in the planet. And but they had a dog. They had Ringo, the Malinois. So I can't walk past the dog and not talk to him. So I went and sat down by Ringo and the salesman, which was a recruiter, which they are salesman, he told me Ringo had been in Iraq Four times, done four deployments. And, okay, that's interesting. But then he told me about the humanitarian missions the army did. And up until President Trump was elected, there were about 75 countries each year that the Army Veteran Corps was doing humanitarian missions yet. And the more I talked to him, I thought, that's a really good way to pay back for the life that I've had. So called my wife, she came down, listened, she said, unlike most wives, she's 54 at the time, highly Iraqi war. She said, I think you'd like to do this. So that's how it started, but I was ten years over the maximum age limit. And so I applied and after fifteen months they told me no, they said you're too old. I don't like no, I don't believe in no. And so I contacted Mr. Ross Perot who was a humanitarian and a very noble person, the most gracious man I've ever known. He called the head of the army, General Casey, titled the Iraqi war and said, Why won't you let this young man serve his country? Which I'm sure was not the most important call that he had that day. So that's how it started. I went through basic training, almost 58 years of age. I was the oldest veterinarian ever led into the army. I had a 10 age waiver, was able to do humanitarian missions in Guatemala, Belize, Two above the Arctic Circle in Alaska and then three deployments, one to Afghanistan, One to Africa and one to The Middle East. So I was able to see the world. I was able to assess if the beliefs I had about the world and the beliefs I had about armed conflict were real. And I was able to see how other people in the world live and what they need and what we ignore. So it was a great experience, damaging in some ways, but it also has set me on the path where I can do continue to do humanitarian work. So I'm very grateful for that opportunity. And that's from what I understand that connection of seeing also, I, first of all, didn't even know there was a vet corps in the army. I had had those was new knowledge to me when we had our conversation, but it also led you to seeing, I believe, the connection between animal well-being as well as food security and human well-being. And now you're working at Livestock International. So maybe we can segue into that connection of how did working in the army, doing these deployments, working, of course, yes, with animals, but as we all know, animals and humans are super interconnected, and we can't separate the two. So how how how did you get how did you start working at Livestock International and what is the kind of work that you are doing right now? Sure. So Livestock International is a a nonprofit that, was founded by doctor Corey Corey Brown, a good friend of mine. And its focus its major focus is helping small shareholders in developing countries. Small shareholders are people that have a small herd, small flock, and they actually account for about 80% of the livestock agriculture worldwide. Another thing people don't know. So Corey and I crossed paths very early when I was in veterinary school and she was studying to be a pathologist. Then we didn't cross paths for probably, I don't know, thirty five years and she taught a couple of courses for the army about working in developing countries and about connecting with local populations. And she liked the way I interacted with the University of Georgia students so we had a dinner at her house and she said, I was in the army then. She said, well, go get your food. And I said, no, I wanna talk to students first. And so while everybody ate, I went out and talked to each student. So she asked me later, she said, would you like to work on a project in Iraq with me? Now most people probably would have said, I don't wanna go to Iraq, but I said, of course. So Corey and I worked on a project for four years there and we were training Kurdish and Iraqi veterinarians who then went out and held workshops for farmers. And they held they held 69 workshops, and they trained over 2,000 farmers in disease detection. So that's the kind of thing we do is we don't go to countries in a colonial manner. We go into country and ask them what they want and we help teach them so they can go teach everyone else. So that develops, that's a sustainable impact and that's where a lot of first world global North people make the mistake is they decide, we're gonna go here and we're gonna tell you what you need to do. That doesn't work. That just doesn't work. So we have projects, not sure how many countries right now, at least 15 countries right now. And our board members, do all the work. They're not paid for their work. Oftentimes, we're under contract with, United States Department Of Agriculture and Department of Defense. Somebody else pays our expenses, but we do it entirely as volunteers. This is just a lot on, so the previous episode that we're gonna publish around World Wildlife is with a lawyer who we also talked about this the very important connection between livestock and food security for a lot of people that as much as I'm from, like I said, the vegan animal rights world, in many parts of the world, livestock is literally the only thing keeping a lot of these communities alive. And so we cannot, from an ethical or moral perspective, just say, no. Everyone the whole world should go vegan. It doesn't make sense in a lot of these parts of the world. But if we also care about well-being, if these animals are better treated, they get better care. We can prevent disease. We're doing a double service of making sure these animal live better lives, but also that these people will have better lives as well. Because if their animals are doing well, they could be more productive, and then they can live better lives. So I feel, especially in the animal welfare world, I've often felt there's almost a noncaring of human well-being. They care more for the animals than the humans, and I think that is a bit scary of the direction that that movement is going. There'll be more like, we I've had organizations that work with, animals that say, oh, let's take the dog away from the homeless person, and they won't even care about that homeless person life. And it that I I'm starting to feel is a bit scary of of how we we see these things. But in this particular situation, we're actually helping both. We're helping the animals live better lives and the humans. And I think that is a very important lesson to to share with the world of compassion is compassion no matter who it is towards. And this is also in the opposite situation of people say, oh, well, how come you're taking care of the animals instead of the people? Well, in fact, we're doing both at the same time. That's what I love about that the work that you're doing is that it's not segregating caring about animals or caring about people. It's caring about both at the same time. It's a privilege to do it and and really, sustainable agriculture is a cornerstone of economies. If you don't have sustainable agriculture, you don't have money for schools, you don't have money for roads, you don't have hospitals. And if you look at developing countries, if a family is a small shareholder, they have a few chickens, they have few goats and that's it. If they can raise a few more goats or a few more chickens, they can afford to sell some and send their children to school. They can send their children to school, there's a potential to make that country or that region a better place. And also, if the little tiny kids don't have enough protein in their diet, they can't, their brains won't develop properly. So to me, those efforts are super important and as I've shared with you before, from my, I don't think naive perspective, the roots of armed conflict are poverty, food insecurity, corruption and greed. And I think there's every country on earth is guilty of some or all of those. And until, also my particular prejudice, until we have gender parity, we will have poverty, food insecurity, corruption and greed. That's my perspective. And that's why I think it's very important about anyone working in the animal environmental space. I think that they tend to be pushed to the side as not human focused work and that we should prioritize. Whereas, in fact, it is so connected, and we can probably solve a lot of problems. Health issues associated with massive farming are just as important. The huge impact that it'll have on local ecosystems, that it will have on human health, that it will have on humans' capacity to actually sustain their own living, everything is connected, and we can't separate that. And I love the connection you make to armed conflict of if people are living healthy, happy lives, they have the ability to feed their children, send their children to school. What are they gonna be fighting about? You know what I mean? Like, if we have equal sharing of resources, everyone is able to live their lives. I feel like it will reduce the chances of conflict or of mass migration to other countries, which will then create mass concentrations of of populations in city centers, which is also not necessarily, the best situation for all communities. Well, that's not healthy either. And I and you touch on something really important and that is if you look at the mass migration of people right now, it's there's more people who are displaced persons than any time since World War two. And it is about armed conflict, it's about food insecurity, it's about corruption, it's about greed and it's about climate change. Those are the drivers and so focusing on the mass migration is a problem, it's the wrong thing to look at. The right thing to look at is the cause. What's causing. Mhmm. Right. Yeah. Well, that that's we tend to always look at the symptoms, right, before looking at the underlying causes. And I think it what this whole conversation, what I I hope people will take away from it is that compassion towards animals is also very connected to compassion towards our communities and the people's well-being. We cannot separate and extract those two. Human development is very much dependent on animals, be there through farming or through work animals. We are very inter interconnected to them, and we can't separate them. And this kinda leads me into your books about, I think, one of our both we both share a passion for dogs. I have, my two puppies right next to me. Oh my god. Mister Pickles looks absolutely hilarious right now next to me, and the rescue dog. So let's finish on that because I feel it's on it's a very I really love the titles of your book, and you can maybe share where the inspiration came from these books with all of your experience. There's a lot of wild animals, and you wouldn't think dogs, what role did they play? What so I'd love to hear where did the idea for these books came from and maybe share quickly what are they about? Sure. Thank you for that. So, yeah, you're right. It's, people often ask me, students especially, well, what's your favorite animal? And they think I'm gonna say gorilla or I'm gonna say killer whale and I always say dogs. And that's because dogs are an incredibly important element in my life and many other people's lives. People say that we domesticated dogs. I'm not sure they didn't domesticate us but it's definitely Definitely that theory. Yeah, it's definitely my life would not be what it is. I would not have the joy I've had in life without the dogs in my life. So two books and the first one that I wrote was, I Wish the Rainbow Bridge Had Visiting Hours. And then the second I wrote was, I Wish the Rainbow Bridge Had Fewer Paw Prints. And the reason I wrote these is one, I'm not a young person anymore. And about four years ago, I nearly died in Kurdistan. And I was on my way to the ER. I was unconscious in the ER for a few hours. But on the way there, I thought I've had a really blessed life and I've had a lot of wonderful experiences with people and animals. But if I don't start telling those stories, I'm going to forget. And so basically I thought I need to write things as legacy to the animals in my life. And so the first book covered from when I was a little tiny person I met my first two dog friends which was a little red wiener dog and a boxer when I was a toddler to 02/2005 when my first Bernice Mountain dog passed away. Second book covers from 02/2005 to now. So I put these books together really to try to share with people not only the joy I have from animals, the connection I have with animals and appreciate all that they do for us. They're not just dogs, they're family members. They love, they grieve, they're wonderful And our world without them would be a desolate place, a desolate place. So I'm on dog restriction now, I only have two but my grand dog comes over every day And the dogs do good work. One of them does therapy work. She goes to old people's homes and she goes to the YMCA. She also helps challenge third graders read. And that's a really good example of how the third graders who have reading difficulties read better to her than they do to any adult because all adults put pressure on the little kids Mhmm. To read No. It's like this. Oh, say it like this. Dogs just love you and listen no matter what you do. Right, right. And they do and they actually look like they're listening. They look like they're listening. So they're serving a greater good. They're making the world a better place. So these books are both dogs pass in the books, dogs are born and I won't write any more sad dog books but I needed to give them their legacy. The book I'm working on now is about my ten years in the army and that's a challenging one for me to write because if I make it too political, no one's gonna wanna read it. So Or the opposite. If it's very political, then it'll attract a lot of attention. It there's, like, the whole no publicity is bad publicity question. It's true. If it's controversial, it'll probably attract a lot more attention than if it's not. Yeah. And you've talked to me long enough that you know you, and if I say, I'm not gonna make it political, it's gonna it's gonna drip in there. It's just It has to. Nothing is apolitical. Like, everything is connected to somewhat to some degree to that. Especially, let let's be honest. You're we're in the army. Like, that makes a big difference. Yes, it does. But that particular book will give me the chance to talk about what happens in developing countries and to talk about the impact of armed conflict in developing countries and also talk about some of the good things that we try to do and I sincerely hope that those good things don't stop for the next four years. I really do. That causes me a lot of, a lot of concern. But I know they probably won't. The army right now, some of my friends in the army are planning a mission, a humanitarian mission to Mongolia. And, I hope hope to be able to go with them and, even though I'm no longer in the army because never stop. Well, never every like I say, every day I just vowed twenty some years ago that every day I would try to make the world a better place in some small way. And it might be helping a homeless person, it might be helping an animal, it might be talking about climate change, it might be talking to veterinary schools about the responsibility that they have because they were born in The United States and they had opportunity to go to veterinary school. And so that carries a big responsibility. But every day try to make the world a better place. And on that note, you have done a great job it seems, and I hope I hope you know that, but no, it was honestly it's been a pleasure having this conversation, and I feel like there's so many connection points that we can talk about. And for me, what what rings out for everyone listening is, first of all, you can do whatever the hell you want in life. You can become a vet even if you're ten years older than the minimum limit. But, also, what resonated the most throughout your story is is the how connected we are with the natural world, and we cannot separate the two. And that by defending one, you're not neglecting the other. You're doing the opposite. You're actually helping them. So I'm very excited to read your two books. Of course, for everyone listening, there will be links towards these books because I can I just thinking about the title makes me wanna cry already about, like, the like, I know I'm gonna bawl my eyes out just thinking about my puppies? But yeah. So I I'll I'll put all the links in the show notes for anyone listening. If you wanna cry at night because you love dogs. I'll do the same. So thank you so much for this. This was a great conversation, the past conversations we've had as well. So thank you so much for sharing this amazing experience that you've had in so many different, areas of helping and working with animals. And, of course, I do believe that you're making a bit of a difference in the world every day, so you've done your job. I'm trying. And and my wife is, I can only do these things because of my wife because she is supportive of everything I do. And when I said, well, I should probably stay home more and she'll say, no, you have to make up for the people who don't care. So I'm very lucky to have her And I'm very lucky to have this conversation too. Thank you, Catherine. I appreciate it. My pleasure. So maybe last, if there's any if people wanna connect with you, if you have questions, if they would like to reach out to you, what is the best way for people to contact you? Sure. There's a couple of ways. One is I have a little mediocre website that is, brian e joseph dot com. They can reach me that way, or they can reach me by Gmail, which is brianjoseph522@gmail.com and I'm happy to talk to anybody especially like to talk to young people who are thinking I want to do something exciting, I want to try to make a difference. I give this offer to a lot of young people many of which never take me up on it But I think it's inspired because I never took anybody's advice till I was about 42 years of age. And so I cons constantly shot myself in the foot. So I'm happy to give non parental advice to anyone that might want it. Wonderful. So I'll definitely put both of those in the show notes as well for anyone who wants to connect with you, Brian. Honestly, I know we could talk forever, so we're gonna have to cut it down eventually. But thank you so much once again. And for everyone listening, this was another episode. If you have any questions or comments, feel free to reach out. We'd love to hear what you thought. Thanks for tuning in to the Just Because Podcast. 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