Integrating Human and Animal Rights for Sustainable Conservation in Africa with Jim Karani

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Join us for an inspiring episode of the Just Be Cause Podcast as we sit down with the incredible Jim Karani, a passionate environmental lawyer making waves in the world of wildlife protection. Get ready to dive into the heart of animal welfare in Africa and beyond, and explore the complex intersections of animal rights, human rights, and environmental sustainability.

Jim sheds light on his fascinating journey from rural Kenya to the forefront of wildlife law, and shares powerful insights into the difference between animal welfare and animal rights. How does context matter in this debate? And how can we navigate the intricate relationships between humans and animals to create a more balanced and conscious future?

Throughout our conversation, we'll tackle pressing topics like the impact of poverty and development on conservation efforts, and examine real-life campaigns that have transformed the fate of iconic species. With Jim's unique perspective, you'll gain a deeper understanding of how local communities can genuinely drive change, and why meeting people where they are is crucial for the future of our planet.

Don't miss this thought-provoking and uplifting episode filled with hope, innovation, and a call to action for a sustainable and just world!

Important links

12 of the most biodiverse countries research paper

The Hands Off Our Elephants campaign

Lawyers for Animal Protection in Africa

Jim Karani on Linkedin

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Transcript

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I support animal welfare just because a better life for animals means a better future for us all. Welcome to the Just Because podcast. In a space in which the scarcity mindset has been normal for far too long, discover how we're helping nonprofits finally take back their power, find their true purpose, and even use mindfulness to manifest their dream solutions into reality. I'm your host, Catherine Lacefield, a lifetime nonprofit professional. Together, we'll master the tools needed to overcome limitations, rise in times of adversity, and understand the interconnectedness of all causes towards a more conscious philanthropy. Just because it's the right thing to do. Hi, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Just Because podcast. I am super excited to welcome today's guest, Jim Karani, who I met and brand new I don't have video, but I'm air quoting here at an African animal welfare conference happening in Kenya that I unfortunately did not get to participate in life, but virtually I was able to participate. And Jim's thoughts on animal welfare in Africa, but also the perspective on a worldwide level really resonated with me. And so with a fur without further ado, I'd like to present to you Jim Kurani, who's an environmental lawyer who works on wildlife biodiversity and climate change law. He is a founder and general counsel at Lawyers for Animal Protection in Africa, a nonprofit that works to elevate the status of environment and protection of iconic wildlife. He's currently pursuing a PhD in criminal justice at John Jay College, c u n I n y. Oops. John Jay College, c u n y, with interests in environmental criminology. So, Jim, welcome to the show. Thank you, Kathleen, for having me. It's a pleasure. I we had a conversation, before recording this episode that lasted a bit longer than we had predicted, and we got into some really deep topics. So I'm really excited to see what comes up in this conversation today. So I'd like to start off, Jim, with just asking, how did you become a wildlife lawyer? To be honest, I don't think I've ever met one before. So how did that come to be? Tell us about little Jim Karani, how he got to be where he is today. Yeah. It's a it's a great question, not a dangerous question. Young Jim Karani, David, still himself being a lawyer. Young Jim pretty much, going to school in, rural power. I just wasn't seeing himself doing this. I grew up around nature, close to a month and a half o'clock. This is I think it's second I think it's second highest peak surrounded by, you know, a community that lived with and along wildlife. So for us, we had a very interesting relationship with wildlife. It's elephants, radiate crops. It's, elephants, you know, bumping into you as you go to school in the morning. It's monkeys, you know, raiding, feeding lunches in school. So to us, we were surrounded by nature. And so it was almost natural for me that once I went into law school, you know, I I pretty much, at that time, you know, found a calling to, you know, just go into wildlife law. That's right. I remember that connection with nature when we have it in your backyard where I was in Panama for a year, and we would have howler monkeys wake us up every morning. And at first, you're like, this is so charming. At the end, you're like, please stop. But at the same time, I find that really interesting because sometimes we feel like we are so disconnected from nature. And I remember in in that same period while I was in Panama, I did an internship with children, and we asked them to draw a picture of nature. And all of these kids who live in, like, the tropical jungle were drawing lions and elephants that they don't have in their own backyard. They have monkeys and other things, but it was really interesting how people kind of disconnect from, like, the nature in their own backyard and see it not so much as nature. And we we kind of push it off into, oh, in those countries, there's nature, but in ours, there isn't. So I feel like elephants raiding your crops is kind of the epitome of having wildlife in your backyard. So that's that's I can't even imagine what that must have been like growing up. Mhmm. Mhmm. And then, of course of course, it's the connection people have within nature, and, of course, it's most, you know, normal with wildlife. And, you can't stand in front of them or just see an elephant and say you're not faced by something iconic. And then, of course, if you are faced by the monkey business of monkeys Mhmm. You are aware that they are fun, but they're not the funnest. If you are doing hiking in the Tiburon Mountains in Cape Town, if you are walking in in town, cutting fruits in Downtown Mumbai or Delhi, you know very well macaques will be on you. So we we do have a very fascinating relationship with wildlife, one that, you know, deserves our respect. And more importantly, you know, we as you say, we have a wildlife for law. It's a shame we don't have many of them because we do need lawyers to help them navigate, you know, protection. We need to figure out how do we how do we survive with wildlife in an ever changing planet. Exactly. And I love what you say about how to navigate it because there's so much issues at hand nowadays around wildlife, around environmental protection. And one of the things that I wanted to dig in with you, because I thought that was a really great topic when we had our last conversation, was this difference between animal welfare and animal rights. And, of course, as a wildlife lawyer, we're talking a lot about the laws that protect animals. But how does that relate to that difference? Because when I've been talking in my work working in animal shelters versus working for animal rights, it's a very different dynamic, and it's a very different perspective on what is our role and our ability toward these animals. So I'd love to kind of hear what are your thoughts around the difference between animal welfare and animal rights. You know, I I the exploration of this difference difference is actually a really important topic right now in the field. And to me, I have to recognize this, definition when I was deciding what type of lawyer do I want to be. So animal rights are, you know, people who, advocate for this usually insist that animals shouldn't be free from exploitation. Animals are in this inherent rights that will never be abridged. They can't be used for food or transport regardless of the need or necessities. And, moreover, on the other hand, are people who do realize that, you know, animals seem to be treated mainly. They need to be, their suffering needs to be minimized. And then, of course, we accept that human beings and animals have this symbiotic relationship, which most often is sometimes exploitative. And we do agree which is where we will protect women healthy animals not forgetting that we also are animals We are just a higher class of animals who have found a better way of organizing ourselves And we have found ways to protect children, trees, rivers, rocks, minerals. Obviously, definitely, we can find a way to protect animals. I think the debate around animal rights and animal health care has not been helpful and especially not entirely relevant in in Africa. I'll have an explain because anytime you bring the legal concept of rights to a place like Africa, we must contact that. We have spaces in Africa that don't even have or respect human rights. So talking about animals to them is a little bit. To me, I believe it's very hard to talk to somebody who is starving about the animal rights of a chicken. To him, it's survival for the fittest. So our conversation needs to change and realize that animals have a symbiotic relationship with humans. And then, of course, animal rights usually is very loaded. Anytime I bring up the topic of animal rights in a room in Africa, I lose half of the room. It's not like they don't get it. They just feel like it's premature, and it doesn't truly reflect the reality of how we live with animals in Africa. And I love that we're able to have that conversation because, as you say, it's something that's been very difficult, I feel, in the movement. This infighting between animal welfare advocates and animal rights where one of them and I worked in an animal rights organization where animal welfare was almost seen as part of the problem in the sense that they weren't pushing for the abolitionist perspective that animals should be completely free of exploitation. And while in theory, it sounds very good of we should let animals be completely free, we should never use animals for exploitation, of course, like, I think everyone would love to see that happen in the sense of no one wants to purposefully abuse and mistreat an animal, or at least I believe that the great majority of people are not psychopaths that want to mistreat animals on purpose. However, what you bring up around the context of different communities of where they are at right now in their own perspective and perception and paradigm around the realities of how they interact with animals has to be taken into consideration. And before we dive into the specific context of Africa, because that that's the context in which we originally connected, I did wanna kind of maybe touch on your thoughts on that of how your own experience living in that that infighting between groups and how it has been counterproductive? Because, personally, I have found, like you said, like, when I bring up the animal rights issue, you you can lose so many people that just will shut down because they just can't connect with that more extreme vision. And yet when I bring this up to other animal rights activists, I'm often faced with the, well, animal exploitation is also extreme, so it deserves an extreme response. So I'd love to hear kind of, like, how you've navigated that through your work protecting wildlife, but also in general in the field. Sure. You know, as an attorney, I have to be very real about what is the type of things that we can see impact of. Like I told you, I had a moment of reckoning. I had to I had to ask myself this question. Who is in charge of these animals? It's those farmers. And I do not have any control over them. They have the power to change the fortunes of this species. They get to decide what happens. The communities who get to allow wildlife on their land can choose to turn all that land into farmland. They have every right to do so, but they don't do that because they have this relationship with wildlife. And I'm the kind of person who wants to meet people at a level they are. And if I find, people are having challenges accessing food, my first question is not that if if a normal is their only source of protein, My point will be how do we give them more alternative, means of protein. That way, you can direct them into other forms that are, you know, less exploitative. And then, of course, you know, the thing about Africa is the cost. You know, animals have largely been domesticated and used in Africa since antiquity. I mean, you know, some places in Africa are not accessible even. This is, like, if you go to old coastal towns that have, like, six hundred years of history locked in, you will find that towns like Namo, they have no mode of transport apart from using donkeys. And they started using donkeys to for transport. You're going to already take care of them so well because if your donkey is sick, you can't get from one place to another. So the culture of the way animals are intertwined in our heritage. The mere fact that, most of Africans have a totem animal. Like, most people in my family are named after the world. My grandpa, so he would be named after the giraffe. So, you know, we we have a very, deep connection with wildlife that just can't be severed by its habitat. And I usually say it's not productive to animals, at all. It doesn't translate to anything. You know, because you see animal rights is all about putting rights in the constitution that animals have the past three years. That's all women find. But I think it's absolutely nothing when you compare it to slaughter laws, transport laws, exploitation laws, abuse laws, belief in laws. We need to make these things work. And these things don't work through that. They work by realizing that these two animals have a a singularity relationship and existence with many other interests. And the whole point is to balance that animals are not misjudgment. Animals dehumanize their suffering the same way we do for human beings. We, for example, don't all enable the the right to a perfect trial. It's a right to a fair trial. So I feel the same thinking is could be applied to animals too. Mhmm. No. I think that it's a really great perspective to think about. And, also, I think there is some form of reality check that needs to be made. I feel with a lot of these movements of what context we are living in now has to be taken into consideration. While the pipeline dream, of of this utopia where everyone is living fine and dandy, that that's great. Like, that's a great perspective to eventually wanna get there, but the steps to achieve that point don't start at the end. And I love what you said around the in in certain places where they're dependent on these animals for their survival, that will actually generate more of a symbiotic respectful relationship, at least I would hope so. And that's where I loved at the conference when we had these situations where that also becomes almost a human rights issue. So one of the other speakers was mentioning how in a lot of these rural areas, if the donkey gets stolen because of the the donkey skin trade, for example, or if he gets, slaughtered for meat from whatever situation it is, It is actually the women and children who end up replacing the Dunkin'. There was photos of women literally pulling the cart into town. And so I feel that there's also this intertwined relationship between animal rights and protecting that, but also protecting the humans behind them. Because, like you said, there's issues of food insecurity. There's environmental aspects that this is the only source of of protein that is available to them in that area. We can't start saying, you need to start eating tofu or beans that don't grow locally. That is just inaccessible. So, of course, in the African context, I think it's different. But I wanna bring up a point that you had brought about last time around what the animal rights and what the laws imply around how it invokes a sense of duty. And I'd love for you to dive into that because I thought that was a really great way of looking at things and that I hadn't heard before. Right. Right. So you see, when you say somebody has to hatch for something, ideally, what you're saying is somebody else has a duty to disrespect or in our sense to enforce it. So if we say animals have their rights to life, what how does that look like in terms of enforcement? Mhmm. Who do we enforce? And what does it actually even mean? You see, we've we've had how many years of human rights? I don't know. Maybe six decades of that now. And we haven't even figured that out as well enough. So I feel we need to get into a converse in a conversation where we're very low with ourselves. One is international law. People who believe in international law are, you know, in the international law impact of protecting anything. To really look at, the study we just did and the study was looking into, because I looked into ten and two thousand of the most banned of us countries in the world. We're trying to look into their laws and see, has international law in any way impacted their local laws? Their pronouncements at international conventions are actually translating to changes in local law. And I can tell you these findings were rather shocking, but we don't see this follow through in terms of protection. So you may have the rights in law, but they mean nothing when you come to enforce them on the ground. Yeah. And that that's that's a big challenge. Like, so then what's the solution? And that's where I feel different other like, other forms of legislation that say, for example, cage free, they can't be in a cage that is smaller than x. We're starting to implement very applicable and practical things that are easy to conceive for people. Okay. I can no longer do this. The alternative is I have to do at least this. And we start kind of building up from that towards a more theoretical framework of they have a right to live because even that, for example, there was a situation here in Mexico where there was a jaguar that had actually was rode like, roaming around a community and actually, like, was attacking this person's dog who had babies and ended up killing their dog. And unfortunately, the babies unfortunately, the babies were able to be saved. But this becomes a question of this person's dog wants to protect their dog, but then they would have had to potentially shoot a panther with, a jaguar, which is also protected. And so when they come into these conflicts of protecting other animals or protecting themselves, then there's there's issues around which would which one do we prioritize? Which one is the right what's the right thing to do? So What am I going to say? Domestic versus wildlife can also, I think, bring a lot of conflict around, well, where is the right to live in this situation? And this is why we see, The United States passed, passed the big car safety act. They get is, you know, the main reason why you have somebody having a jaguar in in a city where an animal actually really should be in the wild. Mhmm. There's some there's somebody who was in love with animal too much. There's somebody who is on our side. This is one of us. That he has loved that animal too much, and he's decided to own one as opposed to letting it, you know, thrive in the wild. So it's all about the animal welfare of a jaguar living in an apartment is just cutthroat. I I can't even imagine some dogs living in some apartment, but imagine a jaguar then rooms, like, as a as a territory of maybe 21 square. But I mean, it's insane. This is why animal welfare comes into play and says, hey. If you are going to keep this animal, you need at least to have 20 kilometers squared of space. Mhmm. We feel this is the only way that we can allow you to keep this animal. You can't keep this animal in a two bedroom apartment in Brooklyn, than living on top of five other people. You can't walk your panther in town. Imagine. In a place where we don't we don't know what will happen to it. I mean, these are typical things we need to do. And that's what I'm saying. As opposed to debating that, tiger has a or the jaguar has a right to life, I'm busy trying to pass local ordinances. Let's say, if you're gonna have to work your jaguar, at least go to the zoo and do it. You don't have to do it. Yeah. Or at least you don't get the right to do so. Or the very least you don't need to own a Jaguar and Let's go back to the basics. Yeah. Let's go back to the basic, guys. I mean, let's let's be very real. Whoever I mean, at that point, I will say my personal has the right to suit that Jaguar if they felt that the rest of human life was imminent. Exactly. And, like, this was in a situation where it was close to the jungle, so there's a lot of it it was actually a wild jaguar that was passing by. But, of course, because of encroachment, because of loss of biodiversity, because of the encroachment on their own territories, a lot of these wildlife, end up in more urban settings because, well, we're in their territory. Right? And that's where I think it becomes this challenge of, well, it's technically their space. They would have the right to their land, but then how do you deal with the questions of development of, the lack of housing, of people want, like, their own this is where the conflicts become it's easier said than done to say all of these animals have a right to life. Whereas Mhmm. We also want to respect human rights to living a decent quality of life as well. And so this is where I find that's been very difficult. So I I'd love to kind of talk about we've we've talked about specifically the the con the context a bit more in Africa. So, of course, I remember when we were having a conversation talking about when you were when you were growing up on on the farms, like, children had to earn their right to breakfast by taking care of their animals. And I loved when you said that because it creates such a different relationship between people and animals. So can we dive into that a bit and see, like, how that is different to, let's say, more of the elitist vision of animal welfare and animal rights that happens in the Western world. Yeah. And I remember how you tell me to raise rabbit hole because we ended up looking when it's in this. And the the thing is there's always been this misconception of farmers abuse their animals, that farmers don't have a good business with their animals. And I can tell you, I grew grew up with my grandma. We had a farm in the backcountry, and you will earn your right to breakfast after you've fed at least two or three, you know, you know, cocktails. And I can tell you this, our relationship with those animals was beautiful. It was unique and it was pure. Those animals were well taken care of. You know, we had names for each animal. When I remember when I decided to go to the Lewis and Clark and do animal law, it was very easy to explain it to my grandma. She understood it. She got it. She was the very first one to get it. Yeah. But everybody else didn't get it. We got it because our relationship with animals is is one of utility. We know what they can do for us, and they know what we can do for them. Like you said earlier, working animals working animals in this community is mean the world to this community. Mhmm. I mean, because of cultural practices, we cannot divorce ourselves without the reality of the rural world where 60% of the world lives in right now at the moment. In these spaces, people still use donkeys and mules to go and fetch water miles and miles away. And then those animals fall sick. It's their own way to go and do that. So these are real practical things that, you know, completely show how our relationship with domestic animals is. Secondly, look at the issue of wildlife. And I'm going to throw Americans at the bus and say, hey. I mean, where is your wildlife America? I mean, no. Seriously, where are all the large migrations of wildlife, continental migrations? They are all long gone because of the exploitivity through the hands of industrialization. Mhmm. Now Africa didn't have back for a very long time, and we still retain much of our wildlife. But now, with us adopting new ways and, you know, properly industrializing, destroying forests, whatever, destroying, you know, savannahs for growing corn and soy soybeans. I mean, we are destroying our relationship with nature. And this is why lawyers are needed. And I am part of a very large group of young lawyers who are company aggressive and I will say audacious and who who we finally know without finally know, are jumping into this space to use their legal skills to champion for protecting the environment. We feel it's not just about going to Dubai and Geneva for big meetings and giving a couple of missions. It's about having those town hall meetings, sitting in committee members, signing conceptual agreements, having them do conservation orders. The hard, boring work that we lawyers are really good at. So, it's it's fascinating to see that local Africans are taking up the fight. That it's no longer seen as a white man's preserve, that conservation is something that is coming from Mhmm. You know, abroad that is not locally driven solutions, locally locally championed by a local professional. So a lot of hope A lot of hope. That that's amazing. And I I really love hearing that because working in philanthropy, there's a lot of criticism, especially of international aid and international involvement in in local issues because of the shift in perspective of not understanding the local context. And I feel for a sustainable, like, issue to be resolved in a sustainable way, pardon, the local community needs to adopt it and take it on for themselves and approach it in their own way because that's the best way to actually Yeah. Enforce it. Do you have any, like, specific examples of a campaign that you can kind of explain, that would kind of showcase the work that you do for protecting wildlife? Oh, yeah. Cool. I can even show you one that pretty much went down to communities and transformed conservation outcomes for an entire species. So, a decade and a half ago, oh my, how much time flies. We did the hands of elephants campaign. So, led by Wildlife Direct and doctor Lisa Bleeky and doctor Paul Okahumbu, At that time is when we were losing 30 elephants every day. Remember back then, back then, there were many campaigns. There was Kony twenty twelve, but also there was elephants dying every minute. You know? 30 a day? That's insane. Remember? It was insane. Things were crazy. And back then, there were no laws, you know, and you know, and poachers were getting slapped on the wrist, penalties and fines, and we needed to do something. I mean, animals are just dying everywhere. It was just, pretty much like an open wall against wildlife. So like minded organizations sometimes put a aggressive advocacy campaign where we through traditional media and social media, we were able to reach, I think, when we're looking at the numbers, you know, a hundred million, I mean, across Oh. The continent. The numbers were fascinating because we were able to jump in for law change. We ended up having, a new law, years you know, a couple of years after the campaign started. That's truly is one of the toughest legislations in Africa, you know, championing against, African and poaching of wildlife. The other thing was, pretty much involving canyons. Like, if you look us up, you can look up hands of elephants, the campaigns and matches, they were at least attracting at least 3,000 to 5,000 Kenyans marching on the streets, you know, demanding for action. That our leaders need to take, you know, the destruction of our heritage seriously. And we're, we were fascinated by the response we obtained from Kenyans. You know, Kenyans literally getting the chance to to, you know, fight for their species. And even more, the most powerful thing you're able to do is connect them with, you know, most of the movies and documentaries on Next. Geo. You'll be shocked to find out that most Africans, you don't have Next. Geo subscription. So all those documentaries you've watched ever since you were a kid, we didn't get a chance to watch them. So while I interact with Nashdo had a partnership where Nashdo able to allow us to show most of those documentaries in schools, in communities, on performance, and not for broadcasters, pretty much showing people the beauty in their backyard. Most people We don't really like it. Yeah. Exactly. Most people feel like we have an abundance of wildlife, but we don't. So showing them how much we're losing, I mean, most Kenyan still the feedback we got when we did service was fascinating that they they were happy to know that they are surrounded by all this well. They were happy to know that they someone is willing someday to protect their heritage. So, this is a very powerful campaign. Now we're being another one called the waves, pretty much targeting the illegal fishing in Africa. Our coast is being designated by illegal fishes. And as all of us seem to have some form of fish blindness, we really don't care about fish that much, and that's all in all of us. And we're trying to do something that pretty much transform the conservation outcomes for species by changing the law, advocating for communities to see the importance of protecting these marine areas, and the more canals involved. The same way they will work for elephants, but now we need them again for sharks and, turtles and whales. People love turtles, though, much more than fish. So at least put some turtles there, and people will understand a bit more. But, yeah, there's the whole megafauna and the whole aspect around which species we choose and deem as worthwhile of saving and conserving. If they're cute, then we wanna save them. If they're not, then we don't care as much. And that's a big issue because when we look at the value of an ecosystem, those maybe not so cute lizards and newts and salamanders are very important to the well-being of the general ecosystem. So it becomes a bit complicated on that aspect. And that's something that I think that I noticed, a lot in conservation campaigns. But I love what you said about having the Kenyans get having Kenyans involved in the campaigns. And that is something one of my clients, the Foundation, they work to protect, African penguins in South Africa and Nairobi. And they're the first penguin to be deemed critically endangered, so they are most likely we're we're gonna most likely lose them by 2035, which is crazy. That's in ten years. We have, like, ten years to do this. And one of the things, like, those petitions going around, and I remember Shannon, the the the cofounder, she was saying, yes. We can share it and all, but unless local South African start signing the petition and putting pressure on their own government, which cares more about their citizens' beliefs than international beliefs because the citizens are gonna be the ones that vote for them in office or not. It's not gonna be Karen in Texas or in miss Minnesota that's gonna care. They don't care about her vote. They care about their local votes. And so that's why I think that's that's a very important difference to make of involving the local community will actually, in my opinion, more likely enable local legislative change than if it's just international pressure. And I love that view. I mean, we we kinda clicked on this, like, oh my god. This is another rapid hole too. And, you know, for me, I've always thought that international law, the way international law protects animals is a little bit like Santa. Like, we always want to imagine that it's someone coming out, coming to help us and leave us gifts. But in reality, it's often someone inside doing all the works. So it's national law that needs to do it. That is so such a perfect comparison. I love it. Yep. And, honestly, people who believe in international law also are the same people who believe in international law. So, hey, international law does doesn't work. It's broken, guys. It's broken. And then of course, do you know what's a tough sell the animal? That's a massive tough sell inhuman on the planet sharks now Very hard to sell that they probably killed four people within the whole year last year and we've lost maybe a hundred million last year. The numbers just don't stack up all because of jaws. So you see, we in as much as we we wanna help, we also have to look at what do the people want. Mhmm. People don't like being told what they want. No. And so it's easier to to to have messaging around turtles because they are cute, because people will connect to that. But I most obviously want them to come and help me to save track. Mhmm. And I have to find a way to use the turtle protections to protect the track too. So Mhmm. We live in this fascinating world where we must be in courts of law where I'm really good at. And then also you must come in court of people courts of public opinion or an organization. So, it's a very interesting space to be in, but there's a lot of hope. That's that's all I can say. Yeah. And I'm so glad to hear that because I feel like a lot of times we tend to have this I I know there's, like, this eco anxiety happening, especially with younger generations where it's like we're screwed. Like, there's not there's nothing we can do. Sorry, guys. We messed up. You were the last generation. Good luck. Whereas when I have I've had so many conversations with incredible people, both in the animal welfare, animal protection space, but also in the environmental space. And this is where this whole podcast is around interconnection. And people have to understand that a lot of times protecting individual species, especially keystone species, can have incredible benefits for the entire ecosystem. So when it comes to sharks, maybe there's movies like wasn't there, like, shark tales that came up that maybe will hopefully compensate for the all the misleading things that Jaws did. But I think that by starting to get people to understand that, first of all, not that many people die from sharks. That's like, you know, change that misconception, but also it's not about the sharks. It's about their role in the whole ecosystem. That if we remove them, we're messing it up for potentially the turtles, and we're messing it up for those cute little fish that you like, like Nemo Mhmm. And Doris. And we we love those those those animals. But if the if the sharks, maybe the ones that we don't like so much don't exist anymore, well, that will have an impact on the entire ecosystem. So understanding that interconnection, and that is where the whole point of launching this podcast was to make those connections with people. Because I remember when I was studying environmental development, we know the science, like, or at least we we understand how the ecosystems work. We we know what needs to be done. That's not the issue. It's getting the people on board with the issue. So there's the social component of environmental protection, of animal protection that is is much more difficult to bring up. And so I'd love to hear what has been some of the biggest challenges for you, working in wildlife, in wildlife law? Yeah. And I'll just I'll just pick on what you just said. For me, it's, you know, you have to change laws, you have to change minds, and more importantly, you have to change hearts. Now this is this is not the easiest of things to do. Changing the laws is the easy part. Now getting people to respect them is the other part. Let's just speak the portion of elephants. I will tell you this. It is not Americans who are coming to my neighborhood or my community in the village to shoot elephants. Mhmm. Locals who are doing that. It's someone who the community knows. I mean, everybody who's doing this when I do the study in Kenya on the on criminality, I can tell you at least 99% of everybody who's committing the times in Kenya are criminals. So we should this message is managed to be taken inwardly to China. And the next question is why are people poaching? So the important thing is people still have a different they are this they feel, disenfranchised from having been kicked out of their land from their land so that Northwell Parks could be set up. So most people like those may reason for the streets that are there. Second, poverty is a big deal. We are still ridiculously and fantastically poor in some areas. And as a result, people will try to live off a land. And if a rhino is walking around and roaming around with, half a million dollar home, I mean, it is going to be killed if there are no measurable law enforcement interventions. And then, of course, we must transform the relationship that the community has with benefits of tourism. Now, Auckland and much of Africa, where animals roam, they are known for their tourism. And tourism brings in a lot of money, but you will never see local communities getting that straight up this money. You will never see this. And we need to factor it in tourism like any other natural resource. If it was oil, we're willing to have to I mean, royalties will not be up to this concern. That won't be controversial. And in in our realms and in our fields, we call this ecosystem services. I feel if my grandma will be getting them accepting the meal at the end of the year because elephants spent, let's say, one month in a year in her farm to sow a few crops. And the check is kinda commensurate value to the damage they did. My grandma will allow them to remain on this. It's that simple. But if if the damage is happening and no one is paying for it and there's no direct benefit, these animals are a constant and a risk to most people. So transforming the relationship and there's nothing people gravitate to more than money. We may whip their morality as much as we want with sad videos and photos of animals butchered, but to Africans, what matters the most sometimes, the reality is the pocket. We must think about that. You can't disconnect that. We we are we have to understand that that is part of the game. It has nothing to do with morality or ethics at that point. It has to do with survival. It has to do with feeding your children and which is also a human rights issue. Right? So I think I love what you bring that up because, once again, when I was doing my my degree, I remember doing a project, a presentation on New Guinea where we were trying to show how SDGs are often intertwined. So they had a project, one of the national park as well, where they had originally done more of a, like, a preservation style approach where they take people out of the land. It was not allowed going, but poaching persisted if not increased that resentment like you said. You're removing these people's livelihoods. And what they actually had done to counterbalance is they actually hired the local community to be the stewards of the park. So they were actually being paid to protect, and they weren't stopped from accessing the park for their own survival needs, but they were still there to protect it and maintain the balance. So they were actually being paid and compensated to protect it. And I think that is where there's a mutual benefit where we need we understand that you are losing out. But right now, this is, let's say, an emergency situation Mhmm. We will compensate you because this is a value of the country as a whole even if it will negatively affect your community right now. So we need to have that compensation. You can't just remove and that's where I've had problems in the past when, for example, on more of a domestic perspective of in Montreal, there was this big fight against, horse drawn carriages in Old Montreal. Mhmm. Because a lot of these horses were collapsing from the heat. They were exhausted. They I'm not saying they're being physically abused on the streets, but it's just not an environment that's usually healthy for, for a horse. And I remember a lot of the backlash was, well, what about these people? This is their career. This is their livelihoods. And everyone was just easily saying, well, they can find another job. And that's that's a very easy argument where, yes, technically, it's true, but we do have to take into consideration these people's livelihoods. If not, we're not that we're as bad, but then we're not being ethical either. We're not taking into consideration the human, aspect of the issue, and that's that's what's gonna lead to us not being able to solve the problem. So Mhmm. That mutuality has to exist, and I'm guessing that is also what has to exist in in the enforcement of laws. If you can sell your eggs for more because you're cage free or because you're organic, then that's a benefit for the farms that will hopefully actually use the the the proper ways of doing it and respect those laws in exchange for the added benefit of being able to sell the products for more. Mhmm. Mhmm. I totally agree with this. And then, of course, actually, the same problem here in New York. I mean, horse drawn carriages, you know, in downtown. I think it's atrocious to look up. I see them a lot when I come out from Columbus Circle, and I see them there. With the cold coming in, those horses are going to suffer. My thinking is people always complain that these people, what are they going to do? They can easily just literally horizontally and laterally move to elect to electric lakeshaws. Mhmm. I mean, we've seen this in Times Square. So that argument is neither here nor there. Something else I've seen that's actually super impactful is in this local communities in Africa, where working animals like donkeys used to carry a lot of water, the advent of this cheap technology from Asia has allowed them to use to replace donkeys with, say, electric ripples, bikes, motorcycles, where the work that used to be done by donkeys has now fully now some of it has been transferred. So You know the question is what happens now to these donkeys that used to work now and no longer needs to work anymore. And we are not offering solutions to the farmers on what they should do. So it's incomes in a Chinese slaughterhouse that says, give me your hundred thousand donkeys. You know, I don't need them to you. Let me give you a soft loan to buy a bike. Your your bike will do the same thing. You don't use doing faster in, in in FIFA time and of course you don't need your donkey anymore. No noise. No brain in the money. So you see, we we kinda need to look at the what the the impact of technology Mhmm. On on more animals are being checked. The impact of we've seen with modern farming and cage farming, just how it has completely modernized the exploitation of animals. We don't like that. We we think it's, potentially problematic. But then again, we haven't incentivized farmers to go to cage free free range. We've made it even harder for them. Mhmm. You know, you know, their their eggs should be easier to produce and they should fetch fetch slightly either commensurate your value or they should they should just get them because the consumer if the consumer sees them being more expensive than the Chipotle. Other eggs, yeah, then they're definitely gonna go for the coupon. So we really have to look at it from both sides. And I'm happy the conversation has started. Yes. I completely agree. And just to touch back on the issue of technology, if we look at okay. Let's stop using animals as labor on, let's say, farms, like, from a cultivation perspective. Let's replace it with fossil fuel run motor vehicles. Like and then what's the impact on the environment there? What's the other long term effects and the lack, oh, now they're not they're no longer having natural fertilizers. Let's start using chemical fertilizers because we no longer have our animals. I work in a a nonprofit against pesticides and and and that whole issue of the chemical replacement of of animal manure for fertilizers and chemicals is just that's also detrimental to biodiversity and protecting wildlife. So at the end of the day, like, when I sometimes when I go down that rabbit hole, I'm like, so there's nothing to do. Like, there's never an easy solution that doesn't have an impact on something. Everything we do has an impact. And Mhmm. I remember one of the last things that we had talked about last time was around the question of morality and Mhmm. How that skews our perspective on potential solutions where and and I'd love to just kind of be finished with that point because I think that's one of the biggest things that come up in a lot of the campaigns. Like you said, sharing photos of, oh, that poor animal and those horrible situations of abuse where we're trying to say this is what you're encouraging. And that's a moral question of, do you want to support the abuse of animals? But then when we look at the practicality, that kind of help that that doesn't not that it doesn't apply, but that it it's it's not as easy an argument to use. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. I love it. And then, you know, it's very easy for this argument for protecting animals to be swept under the moral argument. There are some more theorists who believe animals will not be used at all. I think their message confuses the greater message. The greater message is we need better protection, for this species. And I think for me, we we suffer from a little bit of anthropogenic bias. We are approaching animals to this is what the animals need. For example, when you're building a road and we say this is where we think animals wants to go as opposed to looking at the migrate reading account, we see where animals are actually going. So, you know, we just need to step into a situation where we we look at animals' needs. We've talked a lot about, you know you know, human based design, And there are a couple of organizations that are now having wildlife based design. Mhmm. If this is a corridor where wildlife are going through, we're not willing to force them to go anywhere if we feel the their migration is an overriding interest to everything faster. So that's a lot of English for saying at some point, we will balance animal interests and human interests. It's truly recut the argument between what we protect and what we exploit. And I do think, yes, we have problems with exploiting animals to exhibit. Zoos are increasingly becoming problematic. Everybody knows it. The growth in technology, hologram technology is now meaning we don't need to use animals anymore in zoos. Cultures in Africa like bullfighting are slowly dying down, because, you know, the the the impact of fast to animals and, you know, the enforcement of laws is making people see that what they were doing before is just not a good company. So there is that we can't impose our values and our morality on on people who have different sets of values, different sets of counters. We need to meet them on the level they are. I completely agree and I I love that sentence because it has been a very challenging time to sometimes see and hear the very intense purest visions and while they have a place of getting us to reflect on what what that would represent as a world, I think that from a a legal perspective, like, we have to also remember where we are right now. And how did we, even in the Western world, get to the animal welfare state that we are in now? It was from how many years, how much legislation around basic stuff in the beginning that will slowly build up towards the situation we have now. So we have to understand kind of like development where people need to get take all the steps to on the journey towards animal protection. It's not about just snapping your fingers and finding yourself at the end. Mhmm. Mhmm. And then, of course, I will remiss if I don't mention this, but America's had the democrat the democracy experiment for what, hundred and fifty years now, hundred years. Some countries in Africa have just got into, like, fifty. Yeah. Baby. So, there's there's a there's a there's need for time to catch up. We are shortcutting the process, but there's need for patience. These things take time. But in the meantime, we need to minimize the suffering. We need to create more space for animals. We need to, encourage green resistance, which I feel is the only thing that matters at the moment. Perfect words to end this conversation on, or else as last time, I know we would be able to talk for hours. Jim, for anybody that's interested in wildlife protection or wildlife, law, how what would be the best way for them to contact you or to follow what you do? Oh, great. They can always drop me an email on, jimkarani@lapa.Africa, or they can phone me on LinkedIn, drop me a message. That's always easier definitely. But also looking at our website, lapa.Africa, I mean, it kinda, you know, has a breakdown of what we do and how we can easily be found. So That's great. And, of course, for everyone listening, all of these links will be available in the show notes below, so don't hesitate about writing them down quickly while you're driving. Please do not. They will be available in the show notes, so you can just click them and be able to access the amazing resources that he just mentioned. And, Jim, I'd like to say thank you so much because I know some of these issues are a bit difficult to talk about. We don't talk about them enough, and I'm very glad we were able to have this conversation and hopefully spark more of these open and realistic conversations around how we can protect our wildlife. Thank you, Catherine. It's been a pleasure to be your guest today. Thank you. Thanks for tuning in to the Just Because podcast. Are you enjoying the content we're creating? We'd love to hear your thoughts and feedback. 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